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Old 11-17-2010, 02:26 AM   #1
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Default Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch analysis


Hey all,

I just saw this video in the media section and just had to do a mini-analysis of it. It's a 1v1 SF showmatch between two players who are known to have very good SF's, Yaphets (PIS), and Yamateh.



I want to call your attention to 6:00 in the video where FB occured. Both players are level 5 with level 3 shadowraze. A slight miscalculation by yamateh cost him a death, and ultimately, the game. If we are to examine this scene in detail, there is really more to this scene than meets the eye, and it just shows why dota is such a dynamic strategy game.

Was yamateh wrong to engage at that time? IMO...no, he had the right idea. If he had played it a bit better PIS would have been the dead instead. Lots of people would probably not be able to see the amount of strategy and skill involved in this, and that is why I decided to write up this analysis. Now, why did yamateh decide to engage?

- He had creep advantage
- He had a magic wand with charges
- MOST IMPORTANTLY, he knows that PIS can only fire 1 more raze by looking at his mana, and that he can fire 3 after the MP recovery from wand.

This is your typical situation where mindgames and precise calculation comes into play. Also take into account that PIS was at full HP at the time, whereas Yamateh was at half HP. The setup is perfect... One raze from PIS will bring him down to low enough HP to commit PIS to keep fighting (keep in mind wand is available for use as well). While this is going on, PIS would have to tank 2 razes to the face, and possibly a third one after it finishes CD. This is more than enough to bring PIS's full HP down to nothing, as it is quite clear in the video.

Now, what did Yamateh do wrong? The time of engagement was good. PIS was willing to fight at that spot with 2 creeps hitting him. Again, PIS has full HP and feels much more safe, but in reality, he is actually in quite a lot of danger by choosing to engage. Ideally, Yamateh would like to have engaged 1-2 seconds later so his C raze would be finished CD, but PIS would probably not commit at that time. Anyway, 2 razes from yamateh goes off and it should be clear at this point that he is not going to win a battle trading hits with PIS, even with wand.

So, what yamateh should have done in this case was to stall time for his C raze to cooldown, at the same time committing PIS to fight. The best choice for yamateh to make in this case would be to do the following:

- Save the wand for the absolute latest moment. He had used it quite prematurely in the battle, and could have delayed it for another 1-2 hits.

- Start retreating out of the attack range of PIS, and use wand before the finishing blow lands.

But wait, how does retreating help yamateh in this case? Simple, the moment PIS realizes that he cannot attack yamateh, he will give up chase and retreat. He is not going to chase into tower with his HP especially if he has no mana to cast the finishing raze anyway. This process stalls time for the C raze to come off cooldown. If you look at the game timer, it was about 1-2 seconds away from being done. Knowing that PIS will retreat if he retreats, Yamateh should proceed to immediately turn around and give chase again. Optimally, he would like to be able to read PIS's movements and keep him within the range of the C raze. I have dubbed this technique a long time ago as response hacking.

Notice that the battle is being fought right on top of the ramp. If PIS decides to retreat, he cannot retarget Yamateh because he would have no vision of him. This is what makes this strategy work, as you don't have to worry about a turnaround from PIS. After the CD for the C raze is finished, yamateh can get the easy kill, and would probably go on to win the showmatch.

Also, notice how I didn't mention PIS's decision making at all in this case. This is simply because after he commits to the attack and tanks the first 2 razes from Yamateh, he cannot run away otherwise he will eat a C raze to the face and die. You can see that PIS retreated for a brief moment and realized that it was going to be a mistake. That is why he kept fighting.

This scene is so beautiful in so many ways, as it really showcases mindgames, and the idea of forcing your opponent to commit to a losing battle. If yamateh had managed to successfully pulled that off, holy shit... it would have been an amazing sight... definitely would have been one of the most pimpest plays ever in dota. It's not often that I dub a scene amazing and worth watching, so please take a look . It's a great learning experience, and it just goes to show you that even at the highest level, mindgames and strategy play a huge role in the outcome of a battle, and mistakes do happen. Well played by both players nonetheless.
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:29 AM   #2
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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PIS raped the fuck out of YMT

I have no idea what possessed him to get a wand when playing a 1v1 at that skill level.

Wand combat tricks work really well against people who aren't expecting it but it was quite clear that PIS knew what was going on.
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:53 AM   #3
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totallnewbie View Post
Hey all,

I just saw this video in the media section and just had to do a mini-analysis of it. It's a 1v1 SF showmatch between two players who are known to have very good SF's, Yaphets (PIS), and Yamateh.



I want to call your attention to 6:00 in the video where FB occured. Both players are level 5 with level 3 shadowraze. A slight miscalculation by yamateh cost him a death, and ultimately, the game. If we are to examine this scene in detail, there is really more to this scene than meets the eye, and it just shows why dota is such a dynamic strategy game.

Was yamateh wrong to engage at that time? IMO...no, he had the right idea. If he had played it a bit better PIS would have been the dead instead. Lots of people would probably not be able to see the amount of strategy and skill involved in this, and that is why I decided to write up this analysis. Now, why did yamateh decide to engage?

- He had creep advantage
- He had a magic wand with charges
- MOST IMPORTANTLY, he knows that PIS can only fire 1 more raze by looking at his mana, and that he can fire 3 after the MP recovery from wand.

This is your typical situation where mindgames and precise calculation comes into play. Also take into account that PIS was at full HP at the time, whereas Yamateh was at half HP. The setup is perfect... One raze from PIS will bring him down to low enough HP to commit PIS to keep fighting (keep in mind wand is available for use as well). While this is going on, PIS would have to tank 2 razes to the face, and possibly a third one after it finishes CD. This is more than enough to bring PIS's full HP down to nothing, as it is quite clear in the video.

Now, what did Yamateh do wrong? The time of engagement was good. PIS was willing to fight at that spot with 2 creeps hitting him. Again, PIS has full HP and feels much more safe, but in reality, he is actually in quite a lot of danger by choosing to engage. Ideally, Yamateh would like to have engaged 1-2 seconds later so his Z raze would be finished CD, but PIS would probably not commit at that time. Anyway, 2 razes from yamateh goes off and it should be clear at this point that he is not going to win a battle trading hits with PIS, even with wand.

So, what yamateh should have done in this case was to stall time for his Z raze to cooldown, at the same time committing PIS to fight. The best choice for yamateh to make in this case would be to do the following:

- Save the wand for the absolute latest moment. He had used it quite prematurely in the battle, and could have delayed it for another 1-2 hits.

- Start retreating out of the attack range of PIS, and use wand before the finishing blow lands.

But wait, how does retreating help yamateh in this case? Simple, the moment PIS realizes that he cannot attack yamateh, he will give up chase and retreat. He is not going to chase into tower with his HP especially if he has no mana to cast the finishing raze anyway. This process stalls time for the Z raze to come off cooldown. If you look at the game timer, it was about 1-2 seconds away from being done. Knowing that PIS will retreat if he retreats, Yamateh should proceed to immediately turn around and give chase again. Optimally, he would like to be able to read PIS's movements and keep him within the range of the Z raze. I have dubbed this technique a long time ago as response hacking.

Notice that the battle is being fought right on top of the ramp. If PIS decides to retreat, he cannot retarget Yamateh because he would have no vision of him. This is what makes this strategy work, as you don't have to worry about a turnaround from PIS. After the CD for the Z raze is finished, yamateh can get the easy kill, and would probably go on to win the showmatch.

Also, notice how I didn't mention PIS's decision making at all in this case. This is simply because after he commits to the attack and tanks the first 2 razes from Yamateh, he cannot run away otherwise he will eat a Z raze to the face and die. You can see that PIS retreated for a brief moment and realized that it was going to be a mistake. That is why he kept fighting.

This scene is so beautiful in so many ways, as it really showcases mindgames, and the idea of forcing your opponent to commit to a losing battle. If yamateh had managed to successfully pulled that off, holy shit... it would have been an amazing sight... definitely would have been one of the most pimpest plays ever in dota. It's not often that I dub a scene amazing and worth watching, so please take a look . It's a great learning experience, and it just goes to show you that even at the highest level, mindgames and strategy play a huge role in the outcome of a battle, and mistakes do happen. Well played by both players nonetheless.
Well you are wrong about the fact of yamateh backing off to use his "c" raze to kill pis. If you notice pis only used the "x" raze in the whole battle. Both players had used the "c" raze a bit before the battle but pis had used it first so his raze would come off cd first. If yamateh had backed off he would have died to the "c" raze and yamateh.

Imo the main reason yamateh lost the fight was because he missed the "c" raze entirely. If he had gotten that then pis would have died instead of him.
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Old 11-17-2010, 04:06 AM   #4
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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Where in the video does it actually show that PIS doesnt have enough mana for 2 razes? From the video, it seems like PIS had 200+ mana remaining after the trade of c razes (which yameteh missed). If that's the case ymt doesnt realli have much of a chance from either way we look at it.
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Old 11-17-2010, 04:08 AM   #5
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
PIS raped the fuck out of YMT

I have no idea what possessed him to get a wand when playing a 1v1 at that skill level.

Wand combat tricks work really well against people who aren't expecting it but it was quite clear that PIS knew what was going on.
Common misconception.

Wand is never a bad choice, even at high skill levels. I would say that PIS was in deep shit if yamateh executed his strategy better. Wand would have been one of the crucial factors in determining the winner. He even noticed it himself and started to retreat in the middle of battle. Wand combat is not just a "gimmick" or a "trick"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by woozie how View Post
Well you are wrong about the fact of yamateh backing off to use his "c" raze to kill pis. If you notice pis only used the "x" raze in the whole battle. Both players had used the "c" raze a bit before the battle but pis had used it first so his raze would come off cd first. If yamateh had backed off he would have died to the "c" raze and yamateh.

Imo the main reason yamateh lost the fight was because he missed the "c" raze entirely. If he had gotten that then pis would have died instead of him.
Oops, I typed "Z" raze throughout the entire wall of text. I meant C of course :P. Thanks for pointing it out, fixed.

Well it seems as if you didn't read my wall of text. The reason why yamateh engaged is because PIS could ONLY cast one raze due to his mana pool. If yamateh had hit that C raze before the engagement, I can guarantee you the engagement would have never happened. Missing the C raze brought about the opportunity for yamateh to get FB, as it lured PIS into a false sense of security.

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Originally Posted by elsoloist View Post
Where in the video does it actually show that PIS doesnt have enough mana for 2 razes? From the video, it seems like PIS had 200+ mana remaining after the trade of c razes (which yameteh missed). If that's the case ymt doesnt realli have much of a chance from either way we look at it.
You can see from when the observer highlights PIS's hero, and just countdown his mana everytime he casts a raze. You are looking at Yamateh's mana, not PIS's. After FB happened, the obs put the cursor on PIS and it showed he had 75 mana, and that is after a level up. Thus he only had mana for one raze.

Also, considering the players skills level, if you do not see another raze being casted, it's pretty obvious that they are not able to due to mana constraints. I don't even need the obs to highlight PIS to know that he only had mana for one after the battle was over. That is because if he had more mana, he would have used another raze in the battle.
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Old 11-17-2010, 04:09 AM   #6
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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Is bottlecrow allowed in that game?Not that the game made it that far,but just curious.

Also,thanks whoever uploaded it on youtube,downloading it from youku was a big problem..
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Old 11-17-2010, 04:29 AM   #7
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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Very well-played PIS. Awesome battle of the best SFs.
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Old 11-17-2010, 04:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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Nice analysis, interesting to see how small the deciding factors are when you have a 1v1 of players that skill level.
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Old 11-17-2010, 04:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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i like the analysis. Btw PIS's creep-block style is much better & viable with any hero. While Yamateh's style is riskier with higher rewards. As you can see one of his ghoul's ran wild because of excessive block. After the FB it became clear who would win because of gold + level advantage.
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:11 AM   #10
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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The battle took place at too close a range for him to retreat, he would have still taken 1-2 hits before getting 500 units away. The problem was that he miscalculated who would get the final attack first. He was off by maybe 0.2 seconds. Shrug.

This video doesn't prove much.
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:23 AM   #11
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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i call for rematch!!! lol...it would be very fun for more of these 1v1 "who's the best" games
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:35 AM   #12
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The battle took place at too close a range for him to retreat, he would have still taken 1-2 hits before getting 500 units away. The problem was that he miscalculated who would get the final attack first. He was off by maybe 0.2 seconds. Shrug.

This video doesn't prove much.
He easily could have retreated if he didn't hit in between the 2 razes. Even so, assuming it played out the way it did, I think he would have taken 1 hit max given their distances. If you time the escape when the opponent's attack projectile is about to come out, surviving it would be no problem with wand.

And no, yamateh wasn't going to kill PIS with that last attack. I'm pretty sure he noticed it as well and realized his mistake. It seemed as if he just stood there and hoped for the best after PIS's HP didn't drop as much as he had hoped.

Yes like I said... lots of people will look at this situation and say oh what's so special about this... I'm not surprised by your comment at all. If it doesn't prove anything, please link me to another video that you think does. I will be more than happy to analyze it. I can guarantee that 99.99% of the scenes do not have as much depth as this one does, and will contain fundamental errors in decision making.
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Old 11-17-2010, 08:39 AM   #13
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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it was dissapointing.. buying stick is 1 thing, making it wand is retarded. Never expected that yamateh would play shadow fiend like that. Even PIS din't play in his good form. was prolly a bad day for both.
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Old 11-17-2010, 08:59 AM   #14
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Really nice analysis.

On a totally different note... I believe this match doesn't really prove much. SF 1v1 is a VERY popular way to determine player skill levels in China and strategies for winning in SF 1v1 is VERY different from an ordinary solo match-up. If Yamateh had experience in this match up, he would have not gone for Magic stick first. In a normal solo mid match up it might be reasonable to go Magic Stick against SF, but SF 1v1 is a different story.

And by the way, usually SF 1v1 doesn't allow for Runes since they're considered cheap. I reckon this particular 1v1 is more of an eye-catching gimmick than anything serious, there are some flaws here and there. Yamateh's casualness killed it to some extent, I think.

Still, really nice analysis, keep it up!
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:22 AM   #15
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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Pis rules!!!!!!
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:25 AM   #16
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Really nice analysis.

And by the way, usually SF 1v1 doesn't allow for Runes since they're considered cheap.
-np is mandatory for all 1v1 matches

sentinel sf won because he had much better starting items
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:31 AM   #17
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i don't think so..,
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:35 AM   #18
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Wand is quite strange indeed for SF wars.

Despite your analysis on PIS moving back and forth, it feels more like PIS is trying to do some form of positioning.

I unfortunately disagree with your analysis.

YMT can only delay for one more hit before using his wand; his hp was 92 when the exchange of hits+razes began. At that point YMT has not used his 'x' raze, and we can assume that even if he used z+x (raze still has casting animation time, which is 0.67 seconds, and move cancel doesn't do anything. The same explanation as stopping your raze in time in order to cast an even more accurate raze.) and then retreats, PIS is still in a position to animation cancel and FB ymt first before dying to tower next. At this point the 'c' raze is definitely not ready.

If YMT cast only a single 'z' raze, PIS can still make the decision not to chase YMT, and let him hang himself with poorer farm. All in all, I will say PIS had a great advantage over YMT, especially regarding the item build.
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:06 PM   #19
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Wand is quite strange indeed for SF wars.

Despite your analysis on PIS moving back and forth, it feels more like PIS is trying to do some form of positioning.

I unfortunately disagree with your analysis.

YMT can only delay for one more hit before using his wand; his hp was 92 when the exchange of hits+razes began. At that point YMT has not used his 'x' raze, and we can assume that even if he used z+x (raze still has casting animation time, which is 0.67 seconds, and move cancel doesn't do anything. The same explanation as stopping your raze in time in order to cast an even more accurate raze.) and then retreats, PIS is still in a position to animation cancel and FB ymt first before dying to tower next. At this point the 'c' raze is definitely not ready.

If YMT cast only a single 'z' raze, PIS can still make the decision not to chase YMT, and let him hang himself with poorer farm. All in all, I will say PIS had a great advantage over YMT, especially regarding the item build.
I'm inclined to agree. PIS pretty much had control of the engagement the whole time (although he could have simply used bottle to prevent that sort of fight from happening, but hey YMT pushed for the battle there not him).

YMT already gave PIS time to calculate the HP (he would be able to count out how many times he's razed for magic stick anyways) - but it gave PIS time to launch his difference-making hits. As for why PIS retreats, it's two things - At this point even if PIS had further retreated, he could have gotten his 1 sec bottle time between YMT hits and with the earlier C cooldown (which would have been functional at 6:15 btw - at 6:13.5 when he retreats that's a perfect lane control move) prevent any sort of additional pressuring by YMT (unless he wanted to die). The minor thing is that he doesn't risk a tower hit either if YMT had slightly retreated before PIS's attack finished.

The main outcome of this forced YMT's commitment of the x-raze equalizer to cancel the possible PIS partial-bottle charge (who could have attacked before razing btw - and PIS fought back as a result with the hit advantage) and pretty much the outcome of the fight.

I was impressed that PIS made those clever decisions because they probably came intuitively to him (whereas to me it would come from game calculations and mechanics/knowledge) - but it would be impossible for anyone, let alone YMT to have won in that situation.

Not too important details: Even if you don't look at the bottle/wand argument, you cannot neglect the extra bonuses speed 2 slippers gives you - the differential was something like 5% damage reduction (both had around 75 at the time? - 3.6ish), an extra 6 damage and attack speed - 10+ damage value and even the slightest of atkspeed is huge in these sorts of engagements.
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Old 11-17-2010, 02:22 PM   #20
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-np is mandatory for all 1v1 matches

sentinel sf won because he had much better starting items
they play it without -np mode, but pis' sf basically win the game when he got the first blood, the 2 haste runes just help him end the game quicker.

I think pis' win because he has a better starting item (2 slippers for +6 damage and 1 armor > stick without any charge before lvl 3) and better item build (pms > wand seriously?)
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My favorite part in these replays are CM's deaths and her death scream. Must be the hero in Dota with most deaths. I just keep my screen on CM and follow her everywhere, just waiting for that Lion's Finger of Death to come off CD or watching enemy dots on minimap close in on her. And seems opposing team likes to see her die too.

I think someone should make a Youtube video - 30 mins of gruesome and horrible CM deaths in Dota.
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Old 11-17-2010, 02:32 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by MyLoveIsYueru View Post
I believe this match doesn't really prove much. SF 1v1 is a VERY popular way to determine player skill levels in China and strategies for winning in SF 1v1 is VERY different from an ordinary solo match-up. If Yamateh had experience in this match up, he would have not gone for Magic stick first. In a normal solo mid match up it might be reasonable to go Magic Stick against SF, but SF 1v1 is a different story.
It doesn't really matter what conditions they were playing under. The point of my post was to analyze the battle as it happened. It has more to do with the player's decision making process during the battle rather than what items they decided to get.

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Originally Posted by bekyuubi View Post
YMT can only delay for one more hit before using his wand; his hp was 92 when the exchange of hits+razes began. At that point YMT has not used his 'x' raze, and we can assume that even if he used z+x (raze still has casting animation time, which is 0.67 seconds, and move cancel doesn't do anything. The same explanation as stopping your raze in time in order to cast an even more accurate raze.) and then retreats, PIS is still in a position to animation cancel and FB ymt first before dying to tower next. At this point the 'c' raze is definitely not ready.
It may have been a mistake for YMT to try and squeeze in a hit between razes. It's hard to say whether or not he really could have gotten out of attack range in time, but it doesn't change the fact that he would have definitely been better off trying to retreat rather than to stand there and continue trading hits. Personally I think he could have made the escape, but he would be cutting it really close.

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Originally Posted by UTDC.Justin View Post
I'm inclined to agree. PIS pretty much had control of the engagement the whole time (although he could have simply used bottle to prevent that sort of fight from happening, but hey YMT pushed for the battle there not him).

YMT already gave PIS time to calculate the HP (he would be able to count out how many times he's razed for magic stick anyways) - but it gave PIS time to launch his difference-making hits. As for why PIS retreats, it's two things - At this point even if PIS had further retreated, he could have gotten his 1 sec bottle time between YMT hits and with the earlier C cooldown (which would have been functional at 6:15 btw - at 6:13.5 when he retreats that's a perfect lane control move) prevent any sort of additional pressuring by YMT (unless he wanted to die). The minor thing is that he doesn't risk a tower hit either if YMT had slightly retreated before PIS's attack finished.

The main outcome of this forced YMT's commitment of the x-raze equalizer to cancel the possible PIS partial-bottle charge (who could have attacked before razing btw - and PIS fought back as a result with the hit advantage) and pretty much the outcome of the fight.

I was impressed that PIS made those clever decisions because they probably came intuitively to him (whereas to me it would come from game calculations and mechanics/knowledge) - but it would be impossible for anyone, let alone YMT to have won in that situation.

Not too important details: Even if you don't look at the bottle/wand argument, you cannot neglect the extra bonuses speed 2 slippers gives you - the differential was something like 5% damage reduction (both had around 75 at the time? - 3.6ish), an extra 6 damage and attack speed - 10+ damage value and even the slightest of atkspeed is huge in these sorts of engagements.
For PIS to use a bottle charge just for the mana when he was at full HP is a mistake. It is just wasting a charge. Because he was at such high HP compared to YMT, it was YMT who had the control in the battle because he has more mana to fire off more razes and wand to force his opponent to keep committing to battle.

It's hard to say whether or not retreating while using bottle would have even worked. With YMT in addition to 2 creeps hitting him, I do not think the bottle would even have time to heal enough. All this time, YMT can just follow after his initial hit and finish off with the C raze when it comes off CD. Bottling during the battle is not an issue. With creeps hitting you it is impossible. YMT used the x raze just because he had to in order to win the battle, not because of the possibility of a bottle use.

PIS's actions, to me, seemed forced due to YMT's strategy. It was the slight error in execution and precise calculation that caused it to fail. In contrast, I believe that it was PIS that stood no chance in the battle if YMT had made those slight changes in execution. My personal playstyle revolves around these types of situations, where I try to get the opponent to commit to a battle that seems to be won for them, just to turn the tables and kill the afterwards. I guess that may be a reason why I can understand YMT's situation better and see how the battle could have been won.

Good point regarding the slight damage and AS bonuses PIS has over YMT. It is very important for players to not only check their opponents mana constantly to see what they are capable of, but also take into account any slight bonuses small items may give them. I believe that the extra damage was the reason YMT died 1 hit earlier. However, even after trading 1 more hit, YMT is still 1-2 more hits away from killing PIS, and the C raze would have been close as well. Most likely they probably would have ended up killing each other :P
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Old 11-17-2010, 06:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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i just think you try to analyse to mutch
those 2 player are just good when they fight engage or not the fight is more a reflex than anything else they just think fast " he is 3/4 hp he failed c raze even if 2 creep hit me + wand i can win this " at red hp he was like " do i have to back ( no c raze is just waiting me )? so he just tanked and kill
i feel like my english is realy bad there sry xD
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Old 11-17-2010, 06:18 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by totallnewbie View Post

And no, yamateh wasn't going to kill PIS with that last attack. I'm pretty sure he noticed it as well and realized his mistake. It seemed as if he just stood there and hoped for the best after PIS's HP didn't drop as much as he had hoped.

Yes like I said... lots of people will look at this situation and say oh what's so special about this... I'm not surprised by your comment at all. If it doesn't prove anything, please link me to another video that you think does. I will be more than happy to analyze it. I can guarantee that 99.99% of the scenes do not have as much depth as this one does, and will contain fundamental errors in decision making.
He probably would have killed him with the attack, remember he gains a level when he got the kill, giving him additional life.

My point is that it is a 9 minute 1v1 SF match. Who wins doesn't decide anything and that kill was close enough with enough variables that you can't fault either player regardless of who died. Your 5 paragraph essay on the 10 seconds, while interesting, is purely subjective and guesswork as to what he is thinking. I'm sure that he realized he had a mana advantage and that his extra razes + wand would equalize the battle, I can't say beyond that what was going through either of their minds.
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Old 11-17-2010, 07:00 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by totallnewbie View Post
Common misconception.

Wand is never a bad choice, even at high skill levels. I would say that PIS was in deep shit if yamateh executed his strategy better. Wand would have been one of the crucial factors in determining the winner. He even noticed it himself and started to retreat in the middle of battle. Wand combat is not just a "gimmick" or a "trick"....


Oops, I typed "Z" raze throughout the entire wall of text. I meant C of course :P. Thanks for pointing it out, fixed.

Well it seems as if you didn't read my wall of text. The reason why yamateh engaged is because PIS could ONLY cast one raze due to his mana pool. If yamateh had hit that C raze before the engagement, I can guarantee you the engagement would have never happened. Missing the C raze brought about the opportunity for yamateh to get FB, as it lured PIS into a false sense of security.

*edit

You can see from when the observer highlights PIS's hero, and just countdown his mana everytime he casts a raze. You are looking at Yamateh's mana, not PIS's. After FB happened, the obs put the cursor on PIS and it showed he had 75 mana, and that is after a level up. Thus he only had mana for one raze.

Also, considering the players skills level, if you do not see another raze being casted, it's pretty obvious that they are not able to due to mana constraints. I don't even need the obs to highlight PIS to know that he only had mana for one after the battle was over. That is because if he had more mana, he would have used another raze in the battle.
Wand in a mirror where stick is all that is needed is quite clearly a waste of gold.

PIS gained a massive advantage because of the absurd amount of gold YMT invested in wand while he got items to augment his early last-hits and eventually bottle.

I fully understand the match up and I believe that YMT's strategy, while cute, is inferior to the way PIS played the match.
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Old 11-17-2010, 08:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kampfer. View Post
the fight is more a reflex than anything else
Absolutely not. Reflex is a factor when you have to deal with something unexpected. In a 1v1 situation where nothing will take you by surprise, it is all about planning and execution of strategies. Whoever is better at it comes out on top.


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Originally Posted by cuban-communist View Post
He probably would have killed him with the attack, remember he gains a level when he got the kill, giving him additional life.

My point is that it is a 9 minute 1v1 SF match. Who wins doesn't decide anything and that kill was close enough with enough variables that you can't fault either player regardless of who died. Your 5 paragraph essay on the 10 seconds, while interesting, is purely subjective and guesswork as to what he is thinking. I'm sure that he realized he had a mana advantage and that his extra razes + wand would equalize the battle, I can't say beyond that what was going through either of their minds.
Just by looking at the HP bar, it looks like he could have tanked 1 more hit. However, it would have been really close.. But, their attacks were alternating, and that is how you can determine that YMT wasn't going to win while trading hits.

My analysis isn't blaming anyone, rather it is looking back at a situation to see where possible improvements could have been made. For the most part, it is not "guessing" what the players are thinking, rather, it is concentrating on what could have been done instead. I don't think my insight into why YMT decided to engage is considered as guesswork. Surely he must have thought he could win taking into account the variables. Why else would he engage? just hoping to get lucky?

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Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Wand in a mirror where stick is all that is needed is quite clearly a waste of gold.

PIS gained a massive advantage because of the absurd amount of gold YMT invested in wand while he got items to augment his early last-hits and eventually bottle.

I fully understand the match up and I believe that YMT's strategy, while cute, is inferior to the way PIS played the match.
An extra 5 charges in a matchup where razes are casted a lot? Especially when PIS got bottle to refill his mana for more razes? How is this a waste of gold? In order to get max benefit out of wand, it will depend on your playstyle and how aggressive you are. I know that the charges never reached 10 in this particular match, but spending the 150 gold on say a slipper wouldn't have made a difference in that battle anyway.

Lots of people critique player's item choices. IMO, as long as the player choses items that complements his playstyle well and can make it work, it is fine with me. Early game, individual skill level plays more of a factor than item choice.
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totallnewbie View Post
An extra 5 charges in a matchup where razes are casted a lot? Especially when PIS got bottle to refill his mana for more razes? How is this a waste of gold? In order to get max benefit out of wand, it will depend on your playstyle and how aggressive you are. I know that the charges never reached 10 in this particular match, but spending the 150 gold on say a slipper wouldn't have made a difference in that battle anyway.

Lots of people critique player's item choices. IMO, as long as the player choses items that complements his playstyle well and can make it work, it is fine with me. Early game, individual skill level plays more of a factor than item choice.
The upgrade to wand is completely unnecessary
The lack of early damage gave PIS near free reign over the creeps allowing him to massively out farm YMT eventually reaching bottle and PMS which make wand look silly by comparison.

Stick is a fine item, but YMT's overall play was just poor compared to PIS.

In the end PIS started with 6 agi over YMT and Flasks are far better regen for SF mirror than tangos.

YMT has 3 tangoes and wand regen, PIS has far better early damage and is coming out ahead in the harass war. (engaging with slope advantage getting the last hit out of harass trade)

PIS also appears to be ahead in last hits.


Stick essentially does nothing for YMT until he decides to use it while slippers are constantly useful for PIS and cut into the net HP gain YMT gets from stick. Also stick will give 1-1.5 razes worth of mana top end.

Also PIS's raze dodge around 6min seals the game for him with the 2-0 kill lead and gold advantage.
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:39 PM   #27
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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you might want to note that he threw any chance he had at winning the game when he used his charges at the wrong time, nothing more to it.
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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they just felt it out
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Old 11-20-2010, 05:47 AM   #29
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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i think we should note how little time the players had actually to do these analysis
WP and good analysis
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Old 11-20-2010, 09:45 AM   #30
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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The discussion above me is the reason why I do not analyze whether a top-player X is better than top-player Y.

They're better than me and people I know and that's what important.

Still, I'm a fan of Yamateh... :P
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Old 11-20-2010, 11:07 AM   #31
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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The pros make the little things matter. Well, since the big things don't matter to them anyway since they're pro. PIS!
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Old 11-20-2010, 12:37 PM   #32
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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Within Temptation ;D

OT: I really think you're overreacting, lol. He was like: Hmm, if I'm lucky, I can win this, and he tried.
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Old 11-20-2010, 12:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
I find the reply to the topic kinda offending for YMT.

Anyway, PIS==SF so nothing new. YMT knows how to play him in a 5v5 PIS knows to play him in any situation, even 1v5.
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Old 11-20-2010, 01:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Yaphets (PIS) vs Yamateh 1v1 SF showmatch anal
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PIS vs YMT :

- PIS better starting items
- PIS better farm
- PIS better harassment
- PIS better razes
- PIS wins
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