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Old 12-06-2010, 01:55 PM   #41
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Default Countering Invoker In Lane


Well ghostwalk has a long cd. And he's forced you off the lane, with relatively cheaper spells. Same as outlaned for me.

Also using both cold snap and ghostwalk at level 3 is impractical since he'll start diving you at 2-3(asap basically) which makes it even worse due to lack of time to actually set up 2 invokes. Not to mention that if you do manage to survive with low hp the remaining hp you have might fizzle out due to his luck in prediction(and firefly AoE) + slow from both ghostwalk(40%) + his own stacks(>60% here in total making you more susceptible to death since you cannot move too far when you are slowed that much ). So I'd definitely prefer a wex quas invoker while dealing with batrider. Simply for tornado's sake. Which lasts a sec atleast at level 1.

Again I am not a good invoker player. So this is all I can say from my experience at playing with Batrider against invoker/ playing invoker against Batrider.
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:17 PM   #42
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The way to fight Batrider is EQ or WQ. You have Ice Wall and Forge Spirits to proc the Cold Snap. Although I do admit that if you are caught out of position you can be easily killed. He does get frozen by Ice Wall if he goes through it when flying. It depends if you are level 6 or 7. 7 is when you become pretty hard to kill. 3 spells available for defense.

There have been times I have died to Batrider because my spells where on cd. Level 6 is also a dangerous time. An early boots of speed and a magic stick is also essential. You also can't use Euls on a flying Batrider. Tornado does not stop a flying Batrider either but it does hurt him in a delayed manner.
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:26 PM   #43
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batrider sounds solid
but you could also exploit invoker's passiveness, throw up a defensive hero like lanaya, dk or roof. You're not going to get him out of the lane, but he's can't drive you away either.
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:36 PM   #44
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Quote:
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batrider sounds solid
but you could also exploit invoker's passiveness, throw up a defensive hero like lanaya, dk or roof. You're not going to get him out of the lane, but he's can't drive you away either.
Lanaya I am not so sure about. Invoker has many spells to punish or bypass some of her skills. He has several abilities that have multiple damage procs and can use spells on an invisible Lanaya. He can even knock her out of her invisibility. I wonder if OoV makes her refract go down.

Although I usually do not lane against a Lanaya. Not the most typically solo mid hero. Usually I encounter her later on.
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Old 12-06-2010, 09:24 PM   #45
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Lanaya isn't the best hero against invoker. New rooftrellen might be decent at passive farming though DK gets eaten alive by orbwalking fire monsters(lava spawns or forge spirits whatever u call them).
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Old 12-06-2010, 09:27 PM   #46
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Lanaya is dead when you pick invoker.Cold snap is counted as extra damage source.
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Old 12-06-2010, 11:15 PM   #47
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Sniper for obvious reasons, and Troll.

I have made many solo mid Invoker's rage/pp from Blind spam since he is now a DPS hero and not a caster. =3
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:14 AM   #48
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The answer to Troll is Forge Spirits. He can't Blind everyone.
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:39 AM   #49
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Wait what?
0_o how does an OD get outlaned by an invoker...
if invoke decides to walk around let him. more xp and gold for u
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:22 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMArthur View Post
The answer to Troll is Forge Spirits. He can't Blind everyone.
But wait, I thought Pro Invoker goes Alacrity and Cold Snap and rushes Bfly for Maximum damage. o0

On a serious note, 80% of Invokers don't even realize that he has 8 other spells.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:53 AM   #51
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I dunno... It all comes down to WHAT KIND of invoker you're dealing with.

Quas+Exort < heavy attack heroes that beat him in last hit wars
Wex+Exort < Burst damage, harass heroes
Quas+Wex < I'm not entirely sure... I don't use this build, so I'm not one to speak. I'm pretty sure he can't hurt you that much, though.
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:34 AM   #52
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I dunno... It all comes down to WHAT KIND of invoker you're dealing with.

Quas+Exort < heavy attack heroes that beat him in last hit wars
Wex+Exort < Burst damage, harass heroes
Quas+Wex < I'm not entirely sure... I don't use this build, so I'm not one to speak. I'm pretty sure he can't hurt you that much, though.
I can only speak for EQ, but I would say EQ invoker has a pretty damn good chance again at least 80% (or maybe even higher? not sure) of the heroes in solo laning because of his insane early game damage and hp regen, and summons harass+cold snap

You have to make some adjustments versus some heroes though..

-You can't win against brood using EQ

-you are going to have a tough time against OD using EQ if they are decent, you have to be extremely good at microing your summon, we're talking about hitting the guy once with the summon and pulling it back immediately and sending it to the base because it's going to be down like 80% hp and u don't want to feed that free gold/exp, but at the same time you want to distract him from the last hit

-against helicopter, I still haven't figured out the best way to fight this guy yet with invoker, the buff to his missile range is too much to handle initially...need ganks

-against BS, the key lies in creep blocking in the beginning, if you screw that up it almost ruins your entire game as invoker, aggressive summon harass and cold snap when he wants to last hit+good denies....obvious but can be hard at times
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:39 AM   #53
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u can have only 1 spirit with shitty stats early game , its hardly a factor in lane
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:48 AM   #54
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u can have only 1 spirit with shitty stats early game , its hardly a factor in lane
I have +20 bonus damage with nulls+exort orbs at lvl 1 and +31 bonus damage when I'm lvl 3!

at lvl 4 I already have a summon at my disposal, with cold snap and hp regen

if you know how to micro your summon well it's a big factor, because you can get ALOT of damage into your enemy without sacrificing free gold/exp

if he attacks the summon, he is wasting time and hp because he isn't last hitting, and the summon can be pulled back at any time anyways, if he is attacking the creep then he is losing even more hp (with negative armour)

Throw in a well timed cold snap and he might be dead since he only has 500-600hp early game only, if he isn't then he is losing in lane control because chances are he's staying back and not last hitting well
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:25 PM   #55
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Forge spirits can orb walk you know. Also you can hit them if the opponent starts hitting the spirits. Spirits are low in hp? use them to scout the river for runes.

And each time you orbwalk them the opponent loses 1 armor. Do it 2-3 times and it becomes a significant factor.

Also people who prioritize getting Exort to level 4 before quas to level 4 can benefit from the almost hero like damage of forge spirit level 5 onwards too.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:07 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altazen View Post
I dunno... It all comes down to WHAT KIND of invoker you're dealing with.

Quas+Exort < heavy attack heroes that beat him in last hit wars
Wex+Exort < Burst damage, harass heroes
Quas+Wex < I'm not entirely sure... I don't use this build, so I'm not one to speak. I'm pretty sure he can't hurt you that much, though.
You've got it all backwards and have missed the entire reason Invoker can dominate lanes so easily - it's Invoker who builds to counter his lane opponent and not the other way around. Because he can essentially choose to be one of a number of very different heroes depending on the situation, Invoker basically has the ability to 'counterpick' after everyone is done actually choosing their heroes. That's why it's so hard to counter his lane - you have to find a hero who can stand up to each form of Invoker, because he's going to choose the one that provides the highest advantage against your hero.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:07 PM   #57
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Dual Forge spirits max 106 dps on max exort/wex makes me want to vomit.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:13 PM   #58
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Which is enough to take down supports by themselves in teamfights. Compared to any other summons they are pretty great getting outshined by only sylla's bear.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:49 PM   #59
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Dual Forge spirits max 106 dps on max exort/wex makes me want to vomit.
Dual Forge Spirits have 110.67 dps at max level. 2 attacks every 3 seconds.

I see nothing wrong with this. They reach this sort of damage before they max out as Quas only determines range and duration.

Necronomicon Warriors beat them out at what I think is 151.5 dps counting their damage types since they do normal and piercing damage that is greatly reduced by hero armor.

However each successive hit does more damage and they have far more range. You can also make them orb walk which removes some of their slow attack speed disadvantages.

I think they are pretty comparable to Necrowarriors and end up doing more damage due to their range.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:50 PM   #60
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Which is enough to take down supports by themselves in teamfights. Compared to any other summons they are pretty great getting outshined by only sylla's bear.
I can take support and carries alike with visage,enhantress,syllabear and the list grows.

There are thousand times better summoners from invoker.Don't try to figure out something good from this.

You are overestimating their armor reduction.

Also,normal damage>>chaos damage.
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:17 PM   #61
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How is normal damage better than chaos damage? Normal is reduced by hero armor chaos does full. Normal does more to towers but spirits can still tank tower damage.

Just 2 strike from their armor reduce each is already considerable. Especially mid game.

Who cares if an Enchantress or anybody else can kill a support. Forge Spirits can kill them without any help. This frees you up to do other things. Ever get dual spirits and just walk them behind a tower to orb walk from the rear while you attack the front? You can kill lots of heroes from just this alone. Especially if their armor is not very good. Although a Sun Strike seems to often be required to finish them off.

I am starting to think you don't really know how to use them because they compete quite well with lots of summons in this game and compliment Invoker quite well.
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:16 PM   #62
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I can only speak for EQ, but I would say EQ invoker has a pretty damn good chance again at least 80% (or maybe even higher? not sure) of the heroes in solo laning because of his insane early game damage and hp regen, and summons harass+cold snap

You have to make some adjustments versus some heroes though..

-You can't win against brood using EQ

-you are going to have a tough time against OD using EQ if they are decent, you have to be extremely good at microing your summon, we're talking about hitting the guy once with the summon and pulling it back immediately and sending it to the base because it's going to be down like 80% hp and u don't want to feed that free gold/exp, but at the same time you want to distract him from the last hit

-against helicopter, I still haven't figured out the best way to fight this guy yet with invoker, the buff to his missile range is too much to handle initially...need ganks

-against BS, the key lies in creep blocking in the beginning, if you screw that up it almost ruins your entire game as invoker, aggressive summon harass and cold snap when he wants to last hit+good denies....obvious but can be hard at times
with level 1 arcane orb u will be feeding summons
not to mention his insane base dmg
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:05 PM   #63
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How is normal damage better than chaos damage? Normal is reduced by hero armor chaos does full. Normal does more to towers but spirits can still tank tower damage.

Just 2 strike from their armor reduce each is already considerable. Especially mid game.

Who cares if an Enchantress or anybody else can kill a support. Forge Spirits can kill them without any help. This frees you up to do other things. Ever get dual spirits and just walk them behind a tower to orb walk from the rear while you attack the front? You can kill lots of heroes from just this alone. Especially if their armor is not very good. Although a Sun Strike seems to often be required to finish them off.

I am starting to think you don't really know how to use them because they compete quite well with lots of summons in this game and compliment Invoker quite well.
Because they suck at destroying towers.40% reduction.Normal damage do 70% to fortified,necrowarrior has 0.75 BAT,while summons have 1.5.Necrowarrior alone has double AS from summons,not to mention his destructive mana burn.

-10 armor late game is laughable.Summon's hp in that game time is ok,but you invest insane xp to build an ok summons.

How can summons kill supports with 110 a lot less than 70 dps and some negative armor?How is that even possible?Are they standing there for 10+ seconds?

How can familiars/bear/3 centaurs(chen)/mixed disable neutrals (enhantress) be comparable with forge spirits?

I need solid proof of summons killing support heroes alone.
Of course it has to be an at least level 10 invoker,because previously it can't happen.


Forget it,it is impossible to compare forge spirits with any of these summons,even necrobooks.They are being outclassed in most potential.We're wasting our time discussing this.
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:33 PM   #64
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with level 1 arcane orb u will be feeding summons
not to mention his insane base dmg
That's why I said you're going to have a tough time against OD? but like I said if you know how to micro you can get a hit or two off and pull it back without feeding it and distract them from last hitting
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:46 PM   #65
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Because they suck at destroying towers.40% reduction.Normal damage do 70% to fortified,necrowarrior has 0.75 BAT,while summons have 1.5.Necrowarrior alone has double AS from summons,not to mention his destructive mana burn.

-10 armor late game is laughable.Summon's hp in that game time is ok,but you invest insane xp to build an ok summons.

How can summons kill supports with 110 a lot less than 70 dps and some negative armor?How is that even possible?Are they standing there for 10+ seconds?

How can familiars/bear/3 centaurs(chen)/mixed disable neutrals (enhantress) be comparable with forge spirits?

I need solid proof of summons killing support heroes alone.
Of course it has to be an at least level 10 invoker,because previously it can't happen.


Forget it,it is impossible to compare forge spirits with any of these summons,even necrobooks.They are being outclassed in most potential.We're wasting our time discussing this.

Necrobook has a cd. Summons are almost permanently there. Apart from that Necrobook is an item you have to build and is better than any set of summons in the game except maybe syllabear's bear.

-10 armor hurts that CM who has been warding the whole game. -16 armor is what you can easily achieve when you combine the summons armor reduction and coldsnap. Not to mention they help in adding to coldsnap's continuous ministuns helping you in those 1v1 cases/smaller skirmishes.

In a gank early mid the -armor helps quite a lot. Also with invoker's good exort based damage the -armor removes basically all survivability a target can have. Try an OoV invoker with Necro 3 and summons and you can kill any hero without BkB within 10 seconds.No matter even if that hero is medusa. Heck I've killed Medusa with manta + Butterfly with this combo + when she started running(her ulti was on cd though) I caught up using a tornado and killed her.

Slardar's -armor hurts so much that without a single dps item slardar takes down supports in 3-4 hits mid late game. Same with invoker's summons. Their combined dps is equal to a hero's late game and any hero who comes close to them can get hit and take huge damage. Not to mention they help a lot in pushing creeps.

Also, Late game if you find yourself killing heroes a bit slowly and want those summons to give more -armor fast, you can use alacrity on them for huge-armor and real fast. Not to mention their chaos damage rips apart heroes when alacrity is used on them.

Not to forget , just dual summons + alacrity can kill supports before the supports run away. Really great when you spot that CM coming to de-ward and can nab a kill or two.

Unless you think that alacrity is a save for carry kill and don't use it either in laning or in creeping.
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Old 12-07-2010, 06:13 PM   #66
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Necrobook has a cd. Summons are almost permanently there. Apart from that Necrobook is an item you have to build and is better than any set of summons in the game except maybe syllabear's bear.

-10 armor hurts that CM who has been warding the whole game. -16 armor is what you can easily achieve when you combine the summons armor reduction and coldsnap. Not to mention they help in adding to coldsnap's continuous ministuns helping you in those 1v1 cases/smaller skirmishes.

In a gank early mid the -armor helps quite a lot. Also with invoker's good exort based damage the -armor removes basically all survivability a target can have. Try an OoV invoker with Necro 3 and summons and you can kill any hero without BkB within 10 seconds.No matter even if that hero is medusa. Heck I've killed Medusa with manta + Butterfly with this combo + when she started running(her ulti was on cd though) I caught up using a tornado and killed her.

Slardar's -armor hurts so much that without a single dps item slardar takes down supports in 3-4 hits mid late game. Same with invoker's summons. Their combined dps is equal to a hero's late game and any hero who comes close to them can get hit and take huge damage. Not to mention they help a lot in pushing creeps.

Also, Late game if you find yourself killing heroes a bit slowly and want those summons to give more -armor fast, you can use alacrity on them for huge-armor and real fast. Not to mention their chaos damage rips apart heroes when alacrity is used on them.

Not to forget , just dual summons + alacrity can kill supports before the supports run away. Really great when you spot that CM coming to de-ward and can nab a kill or two.

Unless you think that alacrity is a save for carry kill and don't use it either in laning or in creeping.
Please,stop posting and read what you're saying.

Alacrity giving IAS on summons or giving alacrity on generally giving alacrity on summons.
Enemies staying 6 in front of summons getting hit.
Late game supporters dying from a max of ~160 dps when they have 1200+ life.

Think before theorycrafting please.
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Old 12-07-2010, 06:39 PM   #67
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Since you will pester me otherwise watch this game where Invoker gives alacrity to either his summons or to Spirit bear for either pushing towers or creeping or for killing supports from a safe range.
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Old 12-07-2010, 06:40 PM   #68
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wrong replay :@
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Old 12-07-2010, 06:44 PM   #69
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Correct replay here.
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Old 12-07-2010, 09:16 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Redeemed A.I. View Post
Please,stop posting and read what you're saying.

Alacrity giving IAS on summons or giving alacrity on generally giving alacrity on summons.
Enemies staying 6 in front of summons getting hit.
Late game supporters dying from a max of ~160 dps when they have 1200+ life.

Think before theorycrafting please.
Actually late game supporters very often don't have 1200 hp. Even if they get a bunch of str items. Most of the squishy intel will not have that much. This is in no way theory craft.

I have killed those supporters with nothing but Spirits in late game team fights. You would be surprised by how often it can happen. Forge spirits in a hectic battle are not the highest priority for the enemy team. Very quickly they have negative armor and you are hitting for pure damage. It is not like they keep away from them but most people will ignore them until it is too late for that supporter. Very often they escape with a few hundred hp which lets me kill them with a Sun Strike.

What I usually do is shift click them to move forward and then shift attack a supporter. This way they do not agro anything and when they attack a hero they are already close to them letting you orb walk. This is extremely micro intensive though because while you do this you have to also control your hero and invoke new spells at the same time and cast spells on the enemy team.

Another way to do it is say when you are assaulting an outside tower you have the Spirits circle around to attack from the rear while you attack from the front. You wait for the right moment to attack and target those low hp heroes when they run in to defend.

Another way to use spirits is to have one of them draw creep agro when pushing a tower by having it run past the tower. This way the enemy creeps run around chasing the summon while you attack the tower with the rest of your creeps.

Late game I use them as forward scouts when moving through a forest. Scout fog location for ambushes and disable daggers from a distance. They are always useful even if it is a 2 hour game.
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Old 12-07-2010, 09:55 PM   #71
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Actually late game supporters very often don't have 1200 hp. Even if they get a bunch of str items. Most of the squishy intel will not have that much. This is in no way theory craft.

I have killed those supporters with nothing but Spirits in late game team fights. You would be surprised by how often it can happen. Forge spirits in a hectic battle are not the highest priority for the enemy team. Very quickly they have negative armor and you are hitting for pure damage. It is not like they keep away from them but most people will ignore them until it is too late for that supporter. Very often they escape with a few hundred hp which lets me kill them with a Sun Strike.

What I usually do is shift click them to move forward and then shift attack a supporter. This way they do not agro anything and when they attack a hero they are already close to them letting you orb walk. This is extremely micro intensive though because while you do this you have to also control your hero and invoke new spells at the same time and cast spells on the enemy team.

Another way to do it is say when you are assaulting an outside tower you have the Spirits circle around to attack from the rear while you attack from the front. You wait for the right moment to attack and target those low hp heroes when they run in to defend.

Another way to use spirits is to have one of them draw creep agro when pushing a tower by having it run past the tower. This way the enemy creeps run around chasing the summon while you attack the tower with the rest of your creeps.

Late game I use them as forward scouts when moving through a forest. Scout fog location for ambushes and disable daggers from a distance. They are always useful even if it is a 2 hour game.
That's exactly how I use them too
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Old 12-08-2010, 06:29 AM   #72
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When going EQ, I actually prefer a fast level 4 Q over E. My strategy is usually:

1. Summon Forge Spirit if not already summoned, else skip to 2
2. Dagger into the fight as the spirits approach
3. Ice Wall
4. Invoke and cast Cold Snap if not in cooldown, else skip to 5
5. go pure Exort and deal damage while the summons reduce armor.

Of course... this works best when I've got a lane partner. It loses effectiveness in solo lane, but if you orbwalk the summons, even with 20ish damage...
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Old 12-08-2010, 07:24 AM   #73
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Summons cannot compete with Infernals,familiars,necrobook,converted neutrals (chen,enhantress) and their damage to heroes is comparable to furion's treants.

I know you have great micro ideas Azured,but the point is your summons should kill supporters in less than 4-6 seconds,those forge spirits will do so in 8+ seconds and when it comes to carries,it's never gonna happen.


In the end just compare the damage of any of those summons I mentioned and their overal usefulness in teamfights,whether it be target/aoe disable,aoe burn,entagle,mana burn anything is better than -10 armor made in 6 seconds.

Well I'll make the effort of posting this:

-Infernal level 3: 150 mixed dps (chaos damage plus immolation plus burning fist)
-Familiars level 3: 180 x 2 = 360 hero dps (in 3.6 seconds) (1296 overal damage in 3,6 seconds)
-Necrowarrior/Necroarcher level 3: ~126 (normal mixed without aura) | 91 dps (piercing) == 217 mixed damage
-2 centaur Khan plus Dark Troll== 66 dps (chaos) + 20 dps (piercing) == 86 dps (mixed) (Without IAS aura).
or
-3 centaur Khan == 99 dps (chaos) (without IAS aura).

Are you sure you want me to continue adding units that far surpass forge spirits?
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:22 AM   #74
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Hmm, imo it's magina! Call me noob or whatever, but yesterday I got outlaned by a magina as invoker on mid lane! I used exort build btw. He just tank my hits with his stout shield and my spells with shitshield! Then at 5 he ramboes in and hit me! Repeatedly. I am really annoyed. Esp. when he buy ring of the lord health, he keeps his health green! Then his fellas came stun me --> I die --> shit.

p.s. I am a laning pr0
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:42 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed A.I. View Post
Summons cannot compete with Infernals,familiars,necrobook,converted neutrals (chen,enhantress) and their damage to heroes is comparable to furion's treants.

I know you have great micro ideas Azured,but the point is your summons should kill supporters in less than 4-6 seconds,those forge spirits will do so in 8+ seconds and when it comes to carries,it's never gonna happen.


In the end just compare the damage of any of those summons I mentioned and their overal usefulness in teamfights,whether it be target/aoe disable,aoe burn,entagle,mana burn anything is better than -10 armor made in 6 seconds.

Well I'll make the effort of posting this:

-Infernal level 3: 150 mixed dps (chaos damage plus immolation plus burning fist)
-Familiars level 3: 180 x 2 = 360 hero dps (in 3.6 seconds) (1296 overal damage in 3,6 seconds)
-Necrowarrior/Necroarcher level 3: ~126 (normal mixed without aura) | 91 dps (piercing) == 217 mixed damage
-2 centaur Khan plus Dark Troll== 66 dps (chaos) + 20 dps (piercing) == 86 dps (mixed) (Without IAS aura).
or
-3 centaur Khan == 99 dps (chaos) (without IAS aura).

Are you sure you want me to continue adding units that far surpass forge spirits?
You are comparing summons with range longer than most heroes to melee summons. Range summons are going to do more dps than these melee summons in real games. You can't compare numbers. Even if your numbers are wrong.

Combined dps of the Necrnomicon warriors when counting their damage types against heroes should be 166.5.

Necrowarrior dps: ((75x0.6)+(61x0.75))=90.75 since his BAT is .75 multiply by 1.3333 = 121 dps.

Not sure if the feedback damage is the same as normal damage or if the 60% damage of feedback is all the reductions it takes.

Necroarcher dps: 91x0.5=45.5

Combined their dps is 166.5 assuming Necrowarrior gets to hit the enemy all the time without interruptions.
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:17 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureD View Post
You are comparing summons with range longer than most heroes to melee summons. Range summons are going to do more dps than these melee summons in real games. You can't compare numbers. Even if your numbers are wrong.

Combined dps of the Necrnomicon warriors when counting their damage types against heroes should be 166.5.

Necrowarrior dps: ((75x0.6)+(61x0.75))=90.75 since his BAT is .75 multiply by 1.3333 = 121 dps.

Not sure if the feedback damage is the same as normal damage or if the 60% damage of feedback is all the reductions it takes.

Necroarcher dps: 91x0.5=45.5

Combined their dps is 166.5 assuming Necrowarrior gets to hit the enemy all the time without interruptions.
Inside combat,when creeps are pushing,when heroes are fighting,range doesn't always matter.

Btw,you need a level 10 invoker for at least 2 summons,1 summon has the title of is-not-comparable-to-anything.

Stop theorycrafting and accept the fact forge spirits suck big time so Icefrog can have more reassons to buff them.
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:52 PM   #77
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I don't know why you think I am theorycrafting. It is something I do regularly. In the end what I tend to see is that Forge Spirits kill supports and low hp heroes. Necronomicon does not even though it has better dps on paper.

Although it is true FS have very little purpose beyond scouting and procing cold snaps when you can only get 1. Maybe lowering the requirements to 3 Quas and 3 Exort would be a nice buff because I have absolutely no complaint with double spirits. A solid skill when you have 2 of them.
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:04 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed A.I. View Post
Inside combat,when creeps are pushing,when heroes are fighting,range doesn't always matter.

Btw,you need a level 10 invoker for at least 2 summons,1 summon has the title of is-not-comparable-to-anything.

Stop theorycrafting and accept the fact forge spirits suck big time so Icefrog can have more reassons to buff them.
range doesn't always matter

RANGE

ffs
!!

We have an entire hero based on Range for a hard carry you know?
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:33 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed A.I. View Post
Summons cannot compete with Infernals,familiars,necrobook,converted neutrals (chen,enhantress) and their damage to heroes is comparable to furion's treants.

I know you have great micro ideas Azured,but the point is your summons should kill supporters in less than 4-6 seconds,those forge spirits will do so in 8+ seconds and when it comes to carries,it's never gonna happen.


In the end just compare the damage of any of those summons I mentioned and their overal usefulness in teamfights,whether it be target/aoe disable,aoe burn,entagle,mana burn anything is better than -10 armor made in 6 seconds.

Well I'll make the effort of posting this:

-Infernal level 3: 150 mixed dps (chaos damage plus immolation plus burning fist)
-Familiars level 3: 180 x 2 = 360 hero dps (in 3.6 seconds) (1296 overal damage in 3,6 seconds)
-Necrowarrior/Necroarcher level 3: ~126 (normal mixed without aura) | 91 dps (piercing) == 217 mixed damage
-2 centaur Khan plus Dark Troll== 66 dps (chaos) + 20 dps (piercing) == 86 dps (mixed) (Without IAS aura).
or
-3 centaur Khan == 99 dps (chaos) (without IAS aura).

Are you sure you want me to continue adding units that far surpass forge spirits?
You really are on the point of trolling, aren't u? Just read what u said:

Comparing Spirits to Treants... Spirits deal a combined 166 Chaos Damage, whilst Treants (5 of them) do 105-115 Normal Damage...

max Familiar dmg is 154 (checked on site, irrefutable). Second, they do diminishing damage per attack, so your 1296 dmg in 3.6 sec is totally rubbish.

Infernals deal quite a bit of dmg, and hav a nice AOE stun, but look at it. 165 sec cd. Ultimate. Melee. They sure come with drawbacks...

Necrodudes: on paper, they hav a slight upperhand in terms of dps, but then it costs upwards of 5000 gold to get them, and they only lasts 35 sec (90 sec cd) compared to permanent Spirits.

The only summons I agree is better is the Spirit BEar
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:46 PM   #80
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Silencer, Batrider, Storm can not outlane EQ invoker, never! However against silencer, invoker has a really bad mid-late game. So i would say silencer is still good against invoker.

Sniper is ok against invoker, since he can stay out of range most of time invoker's spells and with his imba missile speed he gets last hits well even he has low damage.

Broodmother can do well against EQ invoker but WQ voker will outlane him.

About SF, most of time SF is really good againts EQ invoker but if invoker gets MOST of last hits / denies in 4 waves it will be hard as hell for SF.

Doom counter him most of time, his imba damage (especiall with QB) can be a solve against invoker's cs power. But about harasment, he needs early VG imo. About QW invoker, doom wont be a threat without mana. But invoker lost his last hit & deny power without leveling Exort.

If you want to outlane invoker with a melee hero, it should not be rexxar. Perhaps bloodseeker have a change against him.

Tinker can outlane him if he gets runes but without it, invoker outlane him.

Against Viper, a pro invoker goes for Quas build and it will be really effective against that bitch orbwalker. EQ voker can be outlaned by Viper.

In fact, traxes is really good against invoker. A good last hitter traxes can be outlane invoker most of time. About mid-late game DPS, traxes always outDPS invoker even invoker with Alacricy. And a good time silence counter invoker really hard. Traxes has better missile speed too. Only problem is her base damage but it wont be really problem with better missile speed.

Ezalor can be good against 1v1 invoker most of times. But he is just a farm machine in 1v1 and can not kill or outlane invoker. Both of them gets creep kills, invoker's mana problem (mana leak) wont be a problem against alone Ezalor but every gank will be a dead for invoker in this situtation.
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