[REMAKE] Gondar, the Draenei Ninja

[NoThlnG]

Gondar is considered as one of the weakest hero now in DotA and rarely used in both pub and competitive scene.

Besides, it shares a lot of similar role with other heroes. As scouting, there's another hero like SA. For True Sight, Slardar is considerably better choice.

And for last, it's theme is pretty unclear. His title is Bounty Hunter but only skill that fits that title is Track. Other skills is more ninja-ish.

I'm suggesting a complete remake here. But I want to keep the role of Gondar as a scout and anti-invis hero. And additionally, hero that can be used frequently both in pub and competitive game.

There's no change for Wind Walk.

For current skill, please refer here

Changes are in green

Draenei Ninja
Gondar




__________

Shuriken TossAbility Type: Active
Targeting Type: Point
Ability Hotkey : T



Notes:

• Damage type : magical
• Shuriken has 500/500 flying vision.

• The spammability is given to increase it's line control ability. It can be used as good harassing ability or can be used to last hit creeps from far away like PA do.
• Gave vision to shuriken for another scouting skill.
• It deals lesser damage than current Shuriken Toss but it deals AoE damage and slow with lesser mana cost. So I think it's pretty even.

JinadaAbility Type: Passive
Targeting Type: N/A
Ability Hotkey : J



Notes:

• Critical hit doesn't stack with Backstab.

• Gave stun instead of slow because slow is given to Shuriken Toss instead.
• This will make Gondar more unique coz it's the only reliable Bash in DotA which will make this as great counter to channeling + BKB like WD does.

Ninja's InstinctAbility Type: Active
Targeting Type: Instant
Ability Hotkey : C



Notes:

• (*)MS bonus gain AoE
• (**) Revealing AoE

• Still does it's job as revealing and chasing skill while reducing it's similarity with Amplify Damage.
• More thematically suit.
• Excellent anti-ganking skill because you'll get MS bonus when enemy hero came nearby.

[Polymath]

I like the new shuriken. But can it be made to be like luna's glaive so it hits only 3 targets? Because imagine your version of shuriken: toss it into a crowd, that's going to be some cleave.

Jinada: I don't get the stacking with Backstab part. It is SA's ability right? So why would Gondar ever have it?

[NoThlnG]

Originally Posted by Polymath

I like the new shuriken. But can it be made to be like luna's glaive so it hits only 3 targets? Because imagine your version of shuriken: toss it into a crowd, that's going to be some cleave.

And so does a lot of AoE skills o_O

Originally Posted by Polymath

Jinada: I don't get the stacking with Backstab part. It is SA's ability right? So why would Gondar ever have it?

It means Windwalk's Backstab damage (30/60/90/120 bonus damage on breaking). Well, it doesn't stack currently as well IIRC.

[Polymath]

But how large is a shuriken? It's something small that a ninja throws. But giving it an aoe as large as in your suggestion makes it become more like a glaive thrower. It's not about the balance I'm concerned with here but more of the theme and logic.

[dsbn]

Its a good remake. Just a few minor points.

Shuriken- it's good for lane control and scouting yes. Mana cost is too low making it OP. I suggest to scale it to 50/60/70/80 and change CD to 12/10/8/6 to keep it balanced.
Jinada- no comment here. I like it. Would it stack with bash or mkb?
Ninja- the ulti doesn't look so appealing. Again, gondar was called the bounty hunter bec his ulti gave him bounty when he killed a hero affected by it. This made him an excellent ganker and carry at late game. Null here. I like the show invi instantly though.

[NoThlnG]

Originally Posted by Polymath

But how large is a shuriken? It's something small that a ninja throws. But giving it an aoe as large as in your suggestion makes it become more like a glaive thrower. It's not about the balance I'm concerned with here but more of the theme and logic.

Err... The size is not so big. More or less, same size with current Shuriken. The 500/500 is vision not the size.

[DarknessMonk]

T-Down for the Shuriken and Ulti rmks. While the current SToss sucks, i'm missing the godly mini-stun that prevents town portal escapes and wrecks some ults. And, while i liked the ulti, seems a bit OP (looks like a full-time balanar with agha). Combining ulti and ww, will be a pain in the ass to kill.

[NoThlnG]

Originally Posted by DarknessMonk

T-Down for the Shuriken and Ulti rmks. While the current SToss sucks, i'm missing the godly mini-stun that prevents town portal escapes and wrecks some ults. And, while i liked the ulti, seems a bit OP (looks like a full-time balanar with agha). Combining ulti and ww, will be a pain in the ass to kill.

1. We still have mini stun on Jinada and unlike mini-stun in Toss, BKB doesn't block it which is superb than current mini-stun in more srs game.

2. 20% bonus MS is hardly overpowered. Even MoM provides greater MS bonus than it. And you said pain in the ass to kill? BC gets 28% bonus MS on WW

[Aprir]

I like it a lot.
T-UP.

[Transcends]

It looks decent and the other members comments are valid imo. Another thing is, theme wise, shouldn't a ninja's shuriken prowess increase as he levels up? I'm thinking it should scale like Ninja's instinct and only reach 900. Maybe 600/700/800/900?

[AbyssPetra]

Current Backstab stacks with Jinada. Doesn't it? didn't IceFrog tweaked it.

[sweepberry]

does the new Jinada compatible with Basher item? since this skill got a bash effect now...
I'm getting to like the remakes too. ^^

[dreamcatcher0]

Hmmm... This is interesting.. I'll give it a short review

Shuriken Toss Comments: This is what I'm looking for him! It perfectly fits him. I really love it. You made the right choice in making this skill, I mean mixing with the slow is just perfect!, for me. However, I just thought this skill has a similarity to Alleria's Powershot, its just that you have a slow. Concerns: The mana cost and cooldown. Yeah, I do understand you want to make it a spammable spell or something but I think 50 mc on all levels with such lower duration and a fair-average damage is quite OP. Suggestions: Maybe raise the mana cost by 50/60/70/80 and the cd by 14/12/10/8

Jinada Comments: Hmmm.... when I first read it, I liked it. But when I analyzed it very well, . Since you transfer the slow part to Shuriken, I can't think of any effects that can be replaced to this skill. I mean, current Jinada is perfect but I liked your Shuriken remake. Concerns: Ugghh... that bash reminds me of Kardel's Take Aim that I thought it could work but not as much as the current Jinada. Suggestions: Actually, it's good. It is just that, I'm not a fan of it. Hmmm... I don't know, maybe remake this skill fully that the new skill into a survival or escaping skill for him? I know that there is WW, but face the reality, just place wards or buy gem then he's dead. And speaking of WW, I have a suggestion for that.

Ninja's Instinct Comments: Hmmm.... this is the only suggestion that makes me down. That's it. Concerns: Concerns? The full remake. Imo, it becomes weaker. Suggestions: If you really want this, just add this up to the current Track. That's it.

Windwalk Suggestions: Add Traxex's old Markmanship that gives bonus damage to him to each creep slayed off when that unit died because of the backstab damage. Idk if it will synergize well with other skills

Final Remarks: Comments: Hmmm... I feel like I'm in a roller coaster that this suggestion has ups and downs. I do not agree that he is one of the weakest because he can be a monstrous hero if he is played very well. Well, good luck with your suggestion and I'm hoping one of your proposal will be implemented (especially Shuriken Toss )

[Mr. Burns]

Ooh nice. Windwalk is same right? T-up!

[blackra1n]

Nice, man.

Shuriken Toss - It will synergize VERY WELL with Jinada

Jinada - Bash + critical with short cooldown will solve his weakness... Man I agree with the part that Gondar is one the weakest hero in the game

Wind Walk - No change?

Ninja's Instinct - Anything replacing his Track, anyway this is good, but no comment.

T-Up!

[fan.god]

first thing first, Gondar's model is that of a (Lost) Draenei, not Dranei.

While I do not like the current Gondar, he is truly an annoying ganker. your first skill is more helpful in ganking, but I see no ganking trait from your ulti.
And it is not that useful if you consider the invisible foe knows about this remake, he will not come close to Gondar. Gondar stills knows if there is a foe nearby, but he has no reliable way of finding him like he can with Track (ofc before the foe turns invi).

I have mixed feeling about this. I have seen excellent remakes aiming at increasing his efficiency. t-null

[AbyssPetra]

Track Bounty
Higher the kill streak of unit, the further you can detect him(like Strygwyr's Thirst).

A crown on the unit's head will determine it's has the highest streak/bounty. Gondar recieves the Streak Bounty instead of the killer if the enemy hero died while being tracked by Gondar.

[God_ii]

imba shuriken imo. seriously, 140 aoe 50 mana 7 sec + slow??? this is insane

[NoThlnG]

Originally Posted by AbyssPetra

Current Backstab stacks with Jinada. Doesn't it? didn't IceFrog tweaked it.

AFAIK, it doesn't. Nvm. If it does, then this one does as well. :P:

Originally Posted by sweepberry

does the new Jinada compatible with Basher item? since this skill got a bash effect now...
I'm getting to like the remakes too. ^^

It depends. Not sure if make it stack will make it imba or not.

Originally Posted by fan.god

first thing first, Gondar's model is that of a (Lost) Draenei, not Dranei.

Fixed

Originally Posted by fan.god

While I do not like the current Gondar, he is truly an annoying ganker. your first skill is more helpful in ganking, but I see no ganking trait from your ulti.
And it is not that useful if you consider the invisible foe knows about this remake, he will not come close to Gondar. Gondar stills knows if there is a foe nearby, but he has no reliable way of finding him like he can with Track (ofc before the foe turns invi).

I have mixed feeling about this. I have seen excellent remakes aiming at increasing his efficiency. t-null

Fixed the ulti a bit. Now, it is a passive skill with active part like Shadow Dance.

Originally Posted by God_ii

imba shuriken imo. seriously, 140 aoe 50 mana 7 sec + slow??? this is insane

Increased the mana cost for balance.

[MonkeyEx]

I prefer changing the Windwalk and Shuriken Toss though, don't remove Track's gold bonus and casting range, since they are strong points that Gondar has beside other heroes. Gondar's WindWalk is arguably the worst since the backstab doesn't scale well into late game and dust, gem or wards completely kills it (other ww give bonus MS). The only things that he needs are a minor buff on Track (perhaps something like allowing Gondar to cast Track without breaking WW), major buffs on WW and a slight buff to Toss.