Heroes of Newerth

[ArcheKleine]

The amount of argumentation over the same shit over and over and over for 2000 posts. Gawd damn. Why not summarize and sticky it and close it so this topic can just be ignored? THere will always be two sides to this conversation, I lean towards the DotA one, but I just can't stand how dumb most of this is. It's people giving opinions about their first impressions and people saying how they are wrong and suggesting they play more. Then if it's not it's people coming in and saying HoN sux and why DotA is better, and then the HoN players coming in to defend it.

Honestly, if this topic doesn't change into anything else I don't see why this thread must remain open.

Also half these assumptions are fucking bullshit and unsubstantiated crap based on a few good results. After all how many games have tournaments sponsored by other gaming leagues but never make it to ESWC WCG SMM or even the ASUS tournaments that are held quarterly? Shit even DotA wasn't that cocky when they had tournaments held by Cal-O or MYM.

Also don't speak as if you think Ice is totally fine with HoN continuing to port heroes. I mean wow a game that has 56 heroes, when 47 of them are heavily based on what is in DotA and the last 5 heroes implemented were ports (Lion, spectre, necrolyte, lich, spiritbreaker). Not to mention of all the items only 2 are original and 3 have diverged from their DotA counterparts.

As for the argument about the better engine. What, if anything, has HoN done that solves the problems that DotA faced? Have they gone above and beyond the engine of Warcraft III to really make themselves better than DotA? Think about all the technical changes in the changelog, what were they? They were all about making the game feel closer to DotA, in fact, making their engine comply more inline with the Warcraft III one. Does the WC3 Editor have limitiations? Yes. Does HoN's engine? No. But has HoN done anything with their engine that goes above and beyond that of what has been done in DotA? No.

[Plaid]

I agree with ArcheKleine, but it wont change much even if its stickied.
The debate will rage on, but since so insanely popular there could maybe be made a sub forum? This way we wont have to see the whole video game page full of HoN vs LoL vs DotA threads.

[JohannDesu]

Venomking666 is the best defensor for HoN

anyone stick to him or dota nerds???

[irontofu]

i checked their hero database, and out of 3 heroes I looked at, they copied sven and faceless.The third one was just a mix of dota skills. I probaly would like this game if it was more origianl, not dota with different graphics

[irontofu]

found more cheap copies, defiler is krobelus, and devourer is pudge. Cant these people THINK OF THEIR OWN HEROES

[irontofu]

... around 75% copied heros right now... This game will never suprasse dota by just copying. Even items are copied...

[Plaid]

Its forum etiquette not to post 3 posts right after each other.
Do not keep doing it. Some people get really annoyed of it.
EDIT posts instead of adding new ones!

[Archbound]

Originally Posted by irontofu

... around 75% copied heros right now... This game will never suprasse dota by just copying. Even items are copied...

Nomes Wisdom, Cant find that in Dota, and the Heart in HoN is different. O and the boots are different. They are adding more items and changing them. Once again as has been said, Dota is the Foundation they are building a new house on.

[Archbound]

Originally Posted by irontofu

found more cheap copies, defiler is krobelus, and devourer is pudge. Cant these people THINK OF THEIR OWN HEROES

Yes, Puppet Master, Pandamonium, Scout, zephyr, madman, maliken, and the Dark lady. In addition the next 3 heroes they are releasing are not ports. Forsaken Archer, and the Builder, as well as a 3rd unknown hero

[VenomKing666]

Originally Posted by ArcheKleine

The amount of argumentation over the same shit over and over and over for 2000 posts. Gawd damn. Why not summarize and sticky it and close it so this topic can just be ignored? THere will always be two sides to this conversation, I lean towards the DotA one, but I just can't stand how dumb most of this is. It's people giving opinions about their first impressions and people saying how they are wrong and suggesting they play more. Then if it's not it's people coming in and saying HoN sux and why DotA is better, and then the HoN players coming in to defend it.

You're talking as if people's opinions don't change.

Originally Posted by ArcheKleine

Honestly, if this topic doesn't change into anything else I don't see why this thread must remain open.

Because it is a hot topic and people enjot arguing about it.

Originally Posted by ArcheKleine

Also don't speak as if you think Ice is totally fine with HoN continuing to port heroes. I mean wow a game that has 56 heroes, when 47 of them are heavily based on what is in DotA and the last 5 heroes implemented were ports (Lion, spectre, necrolyte, lich, spiritbreaker). Not to mention of all the items only 2 are original and 3 have diverged from their DotA counterparts.

Well, I didn't see Ice saying anything against it so I don't see why I shouldn't. Also yes, the base of the game is dota, nothing new here, they plan to build on it after.

Originally Posted by ArcheKleine

As for the argument about the better engine. What, if anything, has HoN done that solves the problems that DotA faced? Have they gone above and beyond the engine of Warcraft III to really make themselves better than DotA? Think about all the technical changes in the changelog, what were they? They were all about making the game feel closer to DotA, in fact, making their engine comply more inline with the Warcraft III one. Does the WC3 Editor have limitiations? Yes. Does HoN's engine? No. But has HoN done anything with their engine that goes above and beyond that of what has been done in DotA? No.

It's not because they have not that they will not.

Also it has to be similar to the warcraft 3 engine because it's supposed to be DOTA, so it has to be similar and have the same feel to it. Also some limitations are already bypassed, many orbs can stack with eachother for example.

[musicartist]

I dont see why people cant juz have their opinion on what they like to or wanna play..

yea sure its a dota rip off ...but people like it does that make it bad? no....n nyways the dota creator himself hasn't word out any complain against it so y shud u ?

if u really hate hon so much give it a some time to run on if it succeeds then let it be if it doesn't bash it all u wan ..


Its a game for God's sake

[slowatsch]

As for the argument about the better engine. What, if anything, has HoN done that solves the problems that DotA faced? Have they gone above and beyond the engine of Warcraft III to really make themselves better than DotA? Think about all the technical changes in the changelog, what were they? They were all about making the game feel closer to DotA, in fact, making their engine comply more inline with the Warcraft III one. Does the WC3 Editor have limitiations? Yes. Does HoN's engine? No. But has HoN done anything with their engine that goes above and beyond that of what has been done in DotA? No

Why should they? The engine just feels better, it's smoother. They keep the mechanics because ppl. want them to keep it.

ps. Ohh yeah and spectres/sand wraiths dagger works flawless ans easy, not like in DotA .

Also some of the spells from the S2 heroes are totally new and not seen in DotA. So there is some space

[seconda]

I believe they port some of DotA because they need some thing to based on, then they will update on their own ways. (like uses 6.41(maybe?) unprotected version to creates another DotA-likes)

[ArcheKleine]

Originally Posted by VenomKing666

You're talking as if people's opinions don't change.


Because it is a hot topic and people enjot arguing about it.


Well, I didn't see Ice saying anything against it so I don't see why I shouldn't. Also yes, the base of the game is dota, nothing new here, they plan to build on it after.


It's not because they have not that they will not.

Also it has to be similar to the warcraft 3 engine because it's supposed to be DOTA, so it has to be similar and have the same feel to it. Also some limitations are already bypassed, many orbs can stack with eachother for example.

I was hoping your responses would be a little more insightful. As of now you have no way of changing my underlying opinion because you have no idea what it is since you can't seem to read beneath the lines of what I have said. Also what about any of these arguments has this come to? It's people's opinions, and as musicartist says people are entitled to their opinion. Yes you may present arguments, facts, data, statistics to provide more insight for me, but til that is done, all I have read are in fact, your opinions of the game as well. You cannot change people's opinions with opinions unless you know what it is at the core that they're belief is.

Basing a game off of another is fine, but it's taken way too long for HoN to really take off on their own path. It's been nearly half a year since beta keys are easily available to most anyone that wants them, and yet HoN hasn't taken off in it's own direction aside from the things that I have mentioned. PSR, reconnect, leaving/disconnect % are all nice and all, but they all come with their own faults. The fact of the matter is that people believe one is superior to the other due to these additional features, in that case they never once had the initiative to try joining leagues that took care of this and made an effort on their own to find such an environment, and that is what is truly pitiful.

[Wolfsong]

I am at pains to understand how people say that HoN is NOT an improvement over Dota.

1. Does Dota give you the ability to reconnect after you disconnect? No. HoN does.

2. Does Dota give you the ability to view the replay of EVERY game that has been played on the official server (by you yourself or anyone else)? No. HoN does.

3. Does Dota give you the ability to view detailed statistics for every game that you play, including every player's skill order, item order and ALL relevant statistics for you to evaluate a game afterwards? No. HoN does.

See for example: WIP Match Replay

4. Does Dota track statistics for every player such as Kill/Death/Assist, hero usage, average xp/min or average deny per game? No. HoN does.

See for example: Heroes of Newerth - Player Stats
Click "switch to detailed view" for more stats.

5. Does Dota provide Automated Matchmaking System that is akin to the Warcraft Random Team and Arranged Team System? No. HoN does.

6. Does Dota provide effective leaver protection system? No. HoN does.

7. Does Dota provide built-in tournament and league support? No. HoN does.

8. Is Dota maphack free? No. But HoN is 100% maphack free and will remain so forever (as confirmed by maphack makers).

9. Does Dota allow you to see the status of all your allies at a glace in game to make better decisions in game? No. HoN does.

10. Does Dota have fun to play and balanced heroes such as Puppet Master, The Dark Lady, Zephyr, The Madman, Nymphora, Pandamonium, Arachna, Kraken and Maliken? No. HoN does.

11. Does HoN have everything that Dota is known for mechanics wise, strategy wise, tactics wise and playability wise? Yes.

I can answer 100 more questions from an ordinary reasonable objective person's view and unfortunately for the Dota fan boys all answers will be in favour of HoN

[Archbound]

Originally Posted by ArcheKleine

Basing a game off of another is fine, but it's taken way too long for HoN to really take off on their own path. It's been nearly half a year since beta keys are easily available to most anyone that wants them, and yet HoN hasn't taken off in it's own direction aside from the things that I have mentioned. PSR, reconnect, leaving/disconnect % are all nice and all, but they all come with their own faults. The fact of the matter is that people believe one is superior to the other due to these additional features, in that case they never once had the initiative to try joining leagues that took care of this and made an effort on their own to find such an environment, and that is what is truly pitiful.

Yea, Those new maps, major changes to many items, Hero tweaks, new Heroes, new Items sure are not at all different from dota. Not at all

[UTDC.Justin]

Originally Posted by Archbound

Yea, Those new maps, major changes to many items, Hero tweaks, new Heroes, new Items sure are not at all different from dota. Not at all

I'm not jumping into this argument but being selective in your quotations is never a good idea. While you may not have intended it, it appears to others that you ignored or did not read what she wrote a few posts up, making it a poor case to argue, especially when it is based on fact (majority of HoN's heroes are not new).

Also don't speak as if you think Ice is totally fine with HoN continuing to port heroes. I mean wow a game that has 56 heroes, when 47 of them are heavily based on what is in DotA and the last 5 heroes implemented were ports (Lion, spectre, necrolyte, lich, spiritbreaker). Not to mention of all the items only 2 are original and 3 have diverged from their DotA counterparts...

The remainder of her post mentions her opinions and concerns on the individual aspects of HoN and its engine. You might not agree, but the argument is valid.

Since you have been posting for a while in this thread, there really should be no reason for you to not look at earlier parts of the discussion (at least on the same page). Make the effort to do so, otherwise don't post at all because it will only make your support for HoN seem childish and arrogant in nature.

[Wolfsong]

Originally Posted by UTDC.Justin

I'm not jumping into this argument but being selective in your quotations is never a good idea. While you may not have intended it, it appears to others that you ignored or did not read what she wrote a few posts up, making it a poor case to argue, especially when it is based on fact (majority of HoN's heroes are not new).

The remainder of her post mentions her opinions and concerns on the individual aspects of HoN and its engine. You might not agree, but the argument is valid.

Since you have been posting for a while in this thread, there really should be no reason for you to not look at earlier parts of the discussion (at least on the same page). Make the effort to do so, otherwise don't post at all because it will only make your support for HoN seem childish and arrogant in nature.

To be honest I do not think that "her" (assuming it is her) argument is valid at all.

At the outset S2 has annouced that their game "is heavily based" on Dota. That is their intention. Every beta gamer who reigsters sees an annoucement that S2 loves Dota, asked Ice Frog for permission and made a game "heavily based on Dota".

An argument that seeks to criticise a game by saying that it has achieved its developer's intention is by no means valid.

In fact, an ordinary reasonable developer standing in the shoes of S2 would have adopted the same strategy. That is, to develop a game that is extremely similar to Dota (which is a very popular game) in terms of gameplay and mechanics, but at the same time aim to vastly improve the gaming experience by offering great supporting features as well as by gradually adding fresh contents. This is the best commercial decision to make, and the large fan base and the number of people who has pre-purchased prove that such a strategy has worked.

If she really would like to play something that has a lot of fresh content in terms of mechanics and gameplay (for better or worse), I would suggest that she go and play LoL. The developer of LoL aims to achieve the above goal as opposed to S2's goal with HoN. She can feel free to criticise LoL for not achieving the above goal, if applicable.

Furthermore in my opinoin her argument in the following paragraph confuses mechanics and gameplay with the concept of "engine" and broadly "gaming experience":

"As for the argument about the better engine. What, if anything, has HoN done that solves the problems that DotA faced? Have they gone above and beyond the engine of Warcraft III to really make themselves better than DotA? Think about all the technical changes in the changelog, what were they? They were all about making the game feel closer to DotA, in fact, making their engine comply more inline with the Warcraft III one. Does the WC3 Editor have limitiations? Yes. Does HoN's engine? No. But has HoN done anything with their engine that goes above and beyond that of what has been done in DotA? No."

Of course they would make the game feel closer to Dota in terms of gameplay and mechanics, because that is what their fan base has been demanding ever since beta started. Their fan base is of course, part of the Dota fan base.

I would suggest that she reads my post above as to what HoN offers that Dota does not, and cannot.

If you are really an impartial forum staff, I would suggest that you do something about the following sentence that she posted:

"Also half these assumptions are fucking bullshit and unsubstantiated crap based on a few good results. "

[Plaid]

Originally Posted by Wolfsong

I am at pains to understand how people say that HoN is NOT an improvement over Dota.

1. Does Dota give you the ability to reconnect after you disconnect? No. HoN does.

2. Does Dota give you the ability to view the replay of EVERY game that has been played on the official server (by you yourself or anyone else)? No. HoN does.

3. Does Dota give you the ability to view detailed statistics for every game that you play, including every player's skill order, item order and ALL relevant statistics for you to evaluate a game afterwards? No. HoN does.

See for example: WIP Match Replay

4. Does Dota track statistics for every player such as Kill/Death/Assist, hero usage, average xp/min or average deny per game? No. HoN does.

See for example: Heroes of Newerth - Player Stats
Click "switch to detailed view" for more stats.

5. Does Dota provide Automated Matchmaking System that is akin to the Warcraft Random Team and Arranged Team System? No. HoN does.

6. Does Dota provide effective leaver protection system? No. HoN does.

7. Does Dota provide built-in tournament and league support? No. HoN does.

8. Is Dota maphack free? No. But HoN is 100% maphack free and will remain so forever (as confirmed by maphack makers).

9. Does Dota allow you to see the status of all your allies at a glace in game to make better decisions in game? No. HoN does.

10. Does Dota have fun to play and balanced heroes such as Puppet Master, The Dark Lady, Zephyr, The Madman, Nymphora, Pandamonium, Arachna, Kraken and Maliken? No. HoN does.

11. Does HoN have everything that Dota is known for mechanics wise, strategy wise, tactics wise and playability wise? Yes.

I can answer 100 more questions from an ordinary reasonable objective person's view and unfortunately for the Dota fan boys all answers will be in favour of HoN

^ Wolfsongs list of HoN features.

Indeed these things can be a problem in the wc3 platform. But most DotA players have a wide library of third party programs to help them set up games, Track stats, ban unwanted players, join ladders, host bot controlled games etc etc.

Some people do not like to use these third party programs. And they find them being just a hassle. For them HoN has a lot more features then DotA. And would be what they will choose.

I do not mind third party programs and find them extremely useful and they give me almost all of the HoN features you listed. Therefore I am still playing DotA and have no plans on immigrating to HoN

I also agree with what ArcheKleine said about the engine. v

Originally Posted by ArcheKleineg

As for the argument about the better engine. What, if anything, has HoN done that solves the problems that DotA faced? Have they gone above and beyond the engine of Warcraft III to really make themselves better than DotA? Think about all the technical changes in the changelog, what were they? They were all about making the game feel closer to DotA, in fact, making their engine comply more inline with the Warcraft III one. Does the WC3 Editor have limitiations? Yes. Does HoN's engine? No. But has HoN done anything with their engine that goes above and beyond that of what has been done in DotA? No.

[Ranik]

Arche, ultimately a half year is nothing to S2, they have long betas. We're still in Closed Beta and there's still going to be a few months before Open Beta, they're shooting for an early 2010 release apparently so there's still quite a ways to go.

I think your core problem/belief here is that while you like the idea you have problems with the fact that they've not pushed away from DotA enough even though they have changed several items, added maps, added heroes, changed heroes, etc.

Here's a few of my counters to that:
-I know how stupid it is, but when a Closed Beta is done properly like this it's pretty apt so, it's a closed beta. Ultimately the #1 goal here is to test the groundwork/fix exploits/bugs and nothing else, and they have been having a few problems with said groundwork (servers lagging hard, chat servers going down, etc) that they are trying to rectify first above all else. They do push content, yes, but adding content and modifying content (balance, reworks, etc) is not exactly the #1 focus at all.

-That said, they have been working towards that goal, and the remaining 3 heroes they plan on adding before release are all going to be original and from the sounds of things there is going to be some more new items too.

-However, the ultimate reason a lot of stuff is like DotA is because the people in the community want it to be more like DotA. They actually said a long time ago (before Soul Reaper etc) that they weren't going to port any more heroes but the community wanted more DotA heroes so bad that they obliged, they listened to what the community wanted in content. I can't fault them for this, it's called being a good company and too many companies ignore their community. There's still going to be lots of original stuff coming on the way of course, but they'll be adding some of the popular DotA things just because the people playing on the game want it.

-As for the engine, I don't think being different than DotA for the sake of it is the way to go. They have however made some smart decisions to make abilities that don't properly work in DotA to work in HoN, a good example being Mercurial's shadow dagger, it works flawlessly in HoN and you can go over everything like the ability says you should. Another good example that Red Jedi mentioned is the new hero has an ability similar to Split Shot, and thanks to the HoN engine they'll be able to make this ability work proper like adding orb effects to each individual arrow etc. Another thing I'm looking forward to is the Patrol key (largely useless in this type of game) being replaced with the Glyph.

Ultimately I don't think you'll see as much deviating from DotA as much as you'd like in the Closed Beta, and that's more of a for release type of thing. HoN will always be a game that has common DotA elements because they don't want to betray what DotA is about. There will be new stuff, kinda like old stuff, and old stuff, but all tacked on with a built in front end that will make the game a lot more polished.

DotA is a popular game, but it never became as popular as it could have been because it was a mod in an old game, that required 3rd party software just to have basic competitive features, and even then it's lacking other basic competitive features that are great for not only DotA the e-sport but DotA the pub game like replays, built in developer supported public ladders, etc.

It's just not the kind of game you're looking for at the moment it sounds like, but that's because it's still very very early and only making its first baby steps. Can't expect a baby to ride a bike, eh? :P