[HUGE] Reorganize the Weapon Shop

[Gheizen64]

EDIT: additional credits to Ninguem and his suggestion that improved my presentation and to Benchbreaker that with this topic gave me some good ideas to finish my old project to reorganize the shop.

EDIT2: after some consideration and the latest trend figure in competitive games, i've decided to revert the change on BoA because i think a 100g buff could be too much for PB as it need just a slightly buff now. Also, this make the suggestion a bit shorter, since it change only 2 base items instead of 3 and doesn't change phase boots neither Armlet.

Reorganize the weapon shop





Why?

The reasons were explained by BenchBreaker's topic. In short, there are too many basic damage items at very similar prices and that is not only bad design, but also a waste of space because we could basically remove claymore and replace it with broadsword or Hammer where it's used and the game would play 99% the same. Also some of the item have pretty nonsensical recipes, and i'm mainly talking about the goddamn cranium basher. With this remake, it will finally make all more sense. Finally, the layout is completely unorganized compared to Sena the accessorizer, now it follow a similar layout (column -> kind of item -> top to bottom from cheaper to costlier).

How does it work?

1st column - Pure damage items


The first column is now dedicated to pure damage items. Basically, i swapped Mithril Hammer for Claymore and lowered Broadsword cost. Now pure damage items are all blades (making them easier to recognize item->function) and have more diverses costs. Some recipes will also make more sense like this, as we'll see.

2nd column - various damage items


As we see, now hammer is finally doing what it's supposed to, bonus damage on % proc like all hammer items in the game. This will make the recipes containing hammer more logical and intuitive. Quarterstaff is unchanged. Then finally, Javelin, the most controversial change, is now a +15 dam +10 ias item at a 1200g costs. Where will it be used? We'll see. But rest easy, this is the biggest change i'm proposing.

3rd and 4th column - armor and misc. unchanged

Those are all unchanged items, so i'll move on.

Effects in the game

To be precise, only 2 items were actually changed:



Of which, one of them (Broadsword) bring little to no changes in the economy of the game. However, for completeness' sake, i'll list here all the recipes and how they work now, dividing them in three categories: item that got only visual changes, item that have same final costs and bonuses but different gold per part and item with different final costs/bonuses

Item with only visual changes:


Items that have same final cost / bonuses but different cost for parts:


Item that have different costs and/or bonuses:

TL;DR version of the changes, courtesy of Ninguem:

• Items with only visual changes
  • Cranium Basher
  • Desolator
  • Black King Bar
• Items with same final cost / bonuses but different cost for parts
  • Maelstrom (+100 recipe)
  • Crystalys (+200 recipe)
  • Battlefury (different parts cost)
• Items with different final cost / bonuses
  • Blademail (-200 cost)
  • Lothars Edge (+200 recipe cost -6 dmg +10 ias)
  • Force Staff (no recipe, +5 dmg)
  • Monkey King Bar (-300 cost -3 dmg -5 ias)

Notice that now each one of the weapons has exactly three recipes:

: used in , ,
: used in , ,
: used in , ,
: used in , ,
: used in , ,
: used in , ,

Thx for reading.

[laikzasve]

Although i like it this is to big changes for pd forums.
Ill give u t-up, but this is totally in the hands of IF.

[BenchBreaker]

t-up

[Mr. Burns]

Yep. T-up.

[JediMindaugas]

Me like it

[HappyMonkey]

Very well tought out and explained.
Although this would take a while to get used to, I think the game would benefit in the long run.
As of right now, the display of items in that shop is pretty random.

T-Up

[KuroNeko]

Read it

Liked it

Am supporting it: T-UP!

Only thing I sort've don't like is the awkward force staff build-up (imo). But I love everything else <3

((null on subtle cost changes))

[Dynes]

T-UP for "Item Positions", before another buildup vs in-game "logic" topic.

[Gheizen64]

Honestly, i didn't think i'd get so many t-ups, thanks you!
I understand such a change is pretty big and probably wouldn't be implemented right away. But a change like this is pretty easy to do via steps. For example, exchanging the Javelin for the Mithril hammer to have it appear in all the recipes of an hammer. Then in a successive version lowering the cost on BoA. Then lowering Broadsword. And so on.

[ninguem]

Probably the most extensive Weapon Shop suggestion yet. I'm wondering how long the changelog would be if this gets implemented

Actual comments:

1) I think you should try to avoid including "stealth" changes here. The less changes the easier the path to implementation gets.
(You mentioned that would probably be implemented incrementally. I think you should state things separately from the beginning instead of leaving the hard work for Ice)

Some thorny points I think are better left to separate suggestions:

• Blades of Attack cost buff: Needlessly includes Armlet & PB in the changelog.
• Force Staff buildup: Makes sense, and helps even out the recipes per item but still fells "separate".

2) You also dismiss some changes that are significant, like the MKB buff (the nerfs are insignificant but the 300 cost buff is big)
I do like how now it uses a %chance and an +ias item, though. Maybe some number tweaking here and there would fix this?

3) Javelin stands out as a bad part of the suggestion -- the swords got unique but Javelin & Quarterstaff instead got almost the same.

This suggestion probably needs to mature a bit anyway...

Presentational comments:

You should probably pick some of the more important aspects and highlight them upfront:

• Organized shop layout (ala Sena the Accesorizer)
• +dmg items (BoA ,Braodswoard & Claymore) are more unique.
• Items and recipes are more logical and intuitive
  • Hammer is the old Javelin (the %chance fits naturaly in Basher + Mael)
  • Desolator is now made from swords.

The item analysis could also be cleaned up a little.
I think you should also divide your item analysis in the end in 3 parts to be more clear:

• Items with only visual changes
  • Cranium Basher
  • Desolator
  • Black King Bar
• Items with have same final cost / bonuses but different cost for parts
  • Maelstrom (+100 recipe)
  • Crystalys (+200 recipe)
  • Battlefury (different parts cost)
• Items with diferrent final cost / bonuses
  • Blademail (-200 cost)
  • Lothars Edge (+200 recipe cost -6 bmg +10 ias)
  • Force Staff (no recipe, +5 dmg)
  • Monkey King Bar (-300 cost -3 dmg -5 ias)

(This is assuming that BoA is kept the same and therefore Armlet & PB are removed from the list)

[JX_Blue]

T-up. Though it may take some time to get used to the new recipes and all, some of it does make more sense this way (desolator recipe) and it feels more organized too.

[Whitefang]

You got a good sense of balance but I have to say that your change for Force Staff is a bit odd. No recipe scroll for what it does? It doesn't make sense.

[Gheizen64]

Originally Posted by ninguem

*text*

This is a pretty interesting reply. Yes, i'm aware of the fact Javelin is the weakest link here, but use anything else except damage and ias and the item would need completely new recipes to be included anywhere. Also, while Javelin and Quarterstaff are indeed similar, they are more different than current Broadsword and Claymore (300g difference instead of 200g, 5 damage difference instead of 3). About BoA, yes, it's pretty unecessary, but it would bring two positive changes:
- more simmetry in the costs
- much needed buff for PB that are still bad compared to PT (about 5:1 ratio)

That said, i'm gonna reorganize the items into the categories you proposed since they are clearer than my own, thx for the suggestion.

EDIT: I am actually thinking about a possible change:

- Return Forcestaff recipe to old recipe
- Make lothar recipe 2x javelin + 900 g recipe, same bonuses as current suggestion
- Make Oblivion staff javelin + mantle of intelligence + sobi mask, same bonus as current, same total cost, different costs per component.

It would keep the 3xrecipe for item unchanged and would keep force staff unchanged, but would make oblivion staff from a spear. I prefer my current layout, since force staff is still done from a staff after all (staff of wizardry).

[xiiaosin89]

Opps, nothing, i was fucking blur

EDIT: REMOVED EVERYTHING

[dreamcatcher0]

support!

[Gheizen64]

Again, thx for the positive replies.

I've thought about a change for those who didn't like Javelin in Force staff.

What about:

Bfly recipe : Eaglehorn + Javelin + Talisman of evasion (buffed to 1500g to keep current cost)

and

Force staff: same as current

Would give a little buff to Talisman (-300g, still talisman as a standalone item is rarely used) but on the other hand you'd keep the current recipe on Force Staff.

[ninguem]

Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Would give a little buff to Talisman (-300g, still talisman as a standalone item is rarely used) but on the other hand you'd keep the current recipe on Force Staff.

The amount of recipes each item is used in isn't balanced right now and I don't see why you should go through all the trouble to "fix" this.

I think we should just focus on the awesome bits (item positioning - hammer & claymore switch...) and hope this actually gets implemented instead of trying to make a complete makeover.

BTW, talisman is balanced. If it cost 1500 then it would simply outshine Platemail. (I'm sure there is a math thread about this somewhere)
And most of the changes are already buffs - there is no need to put even more buffs in.

[Palvikinkku]

Support, makes sense and could improve this game to new levels!

Or something like that.

[Maverick]

Yes, this is a good change on item positioning, much better to glance-and-shop through on a tense game, compared to the current jumbled up version

[mahcookie]

Huge t-up sir.