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Old 06-15-2009, 09:19 PM   #1
Odin
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Default Chaos Knight Item Build?


Well, I recently started playing DotA again, and found to my delight that my favorite hero, Nessaj, was almost completely unchanged. Now, of course, I lost a few games while I tried desperately to learn all of the new abilities that my enemies were busting out, but I feel as though I've adapted to that now.

So, that brings me to the matter of items. So far, I've been using the following build, which seems to start off quite weak, then pick up a lot of steam once I grab Sange and Yasha. I'm just wondering if anyone has any recommendations for replacements here.

2 Circlets
6 Tangos
1 Gauntlet and Bracer (maybe a second Bracer, but I usually just sell the second circlet)
Ring of Basilius
Ring of Health
Void Stone (and Perseverance)
Ring of Regeneration, Mask of Death, Vladimir's Offering
Power Treads
Sange
Sange and Yasha (I sometimes get this before the Power Treads, depending on how well I'm doing)
From here, I split, based on how the other team is built. I either get Linken's Sphere if it will help. If not, I'll go for Heart of Tarrasque.
By this point, the game is usually nearly over. If not, I'll start working toward an Assault Cuirass.

So, any recommendations, or is this pretty much ideal?
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:38 PM   #2
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If im playing Nessaj, i always build Bracers/Bottle/PT/Armlet. After Armlet i try to stack HOTs for mass HP and strengh, which gives his illusions full dmg. But now, after the Satanic buff i think Satanic could be a good item after Armlet or after the first HOT.
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:39 PM   #3
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Sorry, many of these acronyms are still alien to me.

PT? Armlet?
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Sorry, many of these acronyms are still alien to me.

PT? Armlet?
PT = Power Treads
Armlet = Armlet of Mordiggian
HOT = Heart of Terrasque
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:46 PM   #5
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Ah, okay. I knew HoT, and I suppose I should have figured out Power Treads.

Hmm... Armlet seems interesting, but I'm not sure. I still love Vladimirs and Perseverance (not least of all since it leaves me the option of Linken's later on).

That, and I'm not good enough at last hitting yet to get Satanic in any reasonable amount of time.

Still, I'll definitely consider these items if I find myself doing particularly well.

EDIT: Incidentally, what does "LC" stand for? I frequently see it in game names, yet can't find it on the acronym list.
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:56 PM   #6
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Imo Vladimirs are not good because the illusions wont get any bonuses from it. Linken is ok because of its Stats and Spell block.

If you have problems to lasthit try to learn it. Nessaj's attackanimation isnt that good but his basedamage is great.

If you cant get Satanic in a reasonable just get Helm of the dominator and try to finish your Satanic. If you can get Messerschmidts Reaver for Heart of Terrasque you can just use it for Satanic. But HOT is a really good item on Nessaj.

And your illusions dont get any damage from items like Buriza or Monkey King Bar. They only get dmg from Strengh items.
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:56 PM   #7
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LC is list checker, a method of hosting games to give 0 (or near-0) input lag for non-host players.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:00 PM   #8
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You are doing just like i do...sange yasha..power treads...vlads... excelent equip...and you are right, assault is awesome for him...

Edit: and you need to be lucky, yo aways get a 4 sec stun and nice criticals, LOL
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:09 PM   #9
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I usually go PT, 3 bracer and bottle. He's a stat oriented feller, and yes Armlet is definitely good on him. Heart if you can, but SandY works too.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:27 PM   #10
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I say you should try your build around the new item, khadgar's pipe. It gives the buff to all of your illusions and your nearby allies, making them even harder to defeat. And the recipe items are pretty good for him imho, hood and nathrezim buckler + 800 gold. I think it's pretty nifty in any teamfight. Also you could drop the perseverance and take a bottle instead or a magic wand (magic stick + 3 branches + 125 recipe). With those items and a couple of bracers you should do fine.

Oh and this is a pretty teamplay oriented build, which should work in public games too.

But the other item suggestions seem fine to me as well.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLamer View Post
And your illusions dont get any damage from items like Buriza or Monkey King Bar. They only get dmg from Strengh items.
Do you mean the critical abilities, or the actual +damage part? Because I did not realize that.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:42 PM   #12
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lol lots of bad info here.

Basically the idea with CK is to get as much strength as possible because it gives both damage and survivability to your images. Start with 2 or 3 bracers, bottle and power Treads, then move on to Heart. Armlet is decent on CK, but definitely not as good as on heroes like Leoric and Naix. Late game move onto items like Skadi and Linken's, as they provide more big stats bonuses for you and your images.

Don't get vlads. Vlad's is a survivability item and stacking strength items will do a better job keeping you alive and give you a lot more damage.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLamer View Post
If im playing Nessaj, i always build Bracers/Bottle/PT/Armlet. After Armlet i try to stack HOTs for mass HP and strengh, which gives his illusions full dmg.
this.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:49 PM   #14
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Chaos Knight is an image hero, and as such you want to work with that.

Images do not get "pure" bonus from items such as +dmg or +armor.

What they do get benefits from are stat items. This is why Armlet is such an amazing item on him. You can turn that on, use your ult and bam! Your images now have all that extra STR without the hp degen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Do you mean the critical abilities, or the actual +damage part? Because I did not realize that.
He means the acutal +damage part. Although images DO NOT BASH ever, even mkb mini bash they do however crit. On the other hand, since he already has a crit skill passive buriza is a huge waste of money on him.

As for item build, I agree with the second poster. Although if you really had the money instead of "stacking" HoTs (I really think stacking HoTs is a waste now that the regen won't stack) I'd make a Manta after the first one. It may be agility biased, but hey thats not really a bad thing and it gives you more images.

To recap.

Vlads + Pers is bad, build stat based items.

Power Treads is actually hit and miss as the images will get the 10+ stats but will not get the +30% IAS. I actually like to get BoT on image heros, but Power Treads are fine too.
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:36 AM   #15
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i think it woudl be good to clear up about what bonuses image do get and don't get.

1) stats. (bracers heart)
yes.
2) armor (chainmail),
?
3) movespeed (boots),
?
4) IAS (gloves),
?
4) auras (vlads, pipe, cuirass)
?
5) non-stat-based regen (sobi, ring)
?
6) magic reduction (cloak, hood)
?


from reading the above comments, it seems #2-6 are "no's",but the images themselves hold the items... doesn't that mean that #2-6 are yesses?
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:41 AM   #16
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The images seem to get my movespeed bonuses from both Power Treads and Sange and Yasha, so #3 is a "Yes". Now that I think on it, I'm also curious if images get the benefit of Linken's spell block effect.
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:56 AM   #17
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On nessaj, I usually rush power treads, after that, Nessaj attacks a lot faster, which makes it easier to farm, my next item will be Sange n Yasha( Sange first ).
That is the core item build for my Nessaj, that is all he really needs anyways. The next items depends on what your team needs and what the enemies fear.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:05 AM   #18
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non em game: 4x bracer, bottle, pt/phase... gank alot... your a roamer. luxury is sell bracer for a heart, armlet over a 4th bracer if you are doing really well.
em game: you cant really lose if you end up with pt, vlads, bfury, sny, heart, ac. not hard to farm at all because its em.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:14 AM   #19
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my CK build is
Treads
HoD/Satanic
Armlet
Manta
Heart

if game still goes on a damage item such as buriza or mkb
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:45 AM   #20
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I tried out Armlet, but I couldn't seem to get the hang of it. I think I'll stick with Vladimirs and SnY, since Satanic is so expensive. The images are weaker, but the real me is stronger. I will pick bottle over Perseverance, however (unless I REALLY need Linken's).

Thanks for the input, guys. Let me know if you have any more suggestions.
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Old 06-16-2009, 02:18 AM   #21
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which bonuses do his images not receive when getting vlads?

it seems to me that with his critical passive ability, beefing up base damage, getting IAS and lifesteal would work... kinda like you do with naix and skeleton king... am i wrong? what's nessaj's limitations in this route if there are any?
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Old 06-16-2009, 02:23 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I tried out Armlet, but I couldn't seem to get the hang of it. I think I'll stick with Vladimirs and SnY, since Satanic is so expensive. The images are weaker, but the real me is stronger. I will pick bottle over Perseverance, however (unless I REALLY need Linken's).

Thanks for the input, guys. Let me know if you have any more suggestions.
You turn Armlet on just before you cast ulti. This gives you +25 strength, which in turn gives you +25 damage and +475HP which your illusions benefit from. And all this costs less than 3000 gold. Don't give up just cuz you can't get the hang of it the first few times.
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Old 06-16-2009, 02:24 AM   #23
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if u activate armlet after u create ur images, do the images still get the HP/attack boost?
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:09 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwho View Post
if u activate armlet after u create ur images, do the images still get the HP/attack boost?
I would assume not.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:29 AM   #25
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However, you're fucked if someone figures out who is the real deal and focuses on you desu. Now you have two choices: Engage while taking severe damage and die, or turn armlet off, lose hp and die desu.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesuX2 View Post
However, you're fucked if someone figures out who is the real deal and focuses on you desu. Now you have two choices: Engage while taking severe damage and die, or turn armlet off, lose hp and die desu.
this is exactly why hes not a naix sk ect type hero, he doesnt support armlet as well. his playstyle is more similar to that of vengeful spirit. you roam and gank, roam and gank, roam and gank, not farm. save that for slithice or pl.

4x bracer, phase/ pt (individual playstyle), bottle. sny works, but just rushing heart afterwards just seems to work better. Dota is a team game, you cant forget that. its your job to blinkstrike into a lane, stun, blinkstrike again, and tank as much as possible while your ally dps's and kills, while not dying yourself (not too hard with all the strength you have). images are for teamfights and pushes, usually both happen together anyways.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:43 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziodex View Post
its your job to blinkstrike into a lane, stun, blinkstrike again, and tank as much as possible while your ally dps's and kills, while not dying yourself (not too hard with all the strength you have). images are for teamfights and pushes, usually both happen together anyways.
Yeah, that's how I usually operate. I'll occasionally use images in a 1v1, or rarely to escape from a large ambush, but the short duration means they work best with multiple stunners.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:48 AM   #28
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Quote:
if u activate armlet after u create ur images, do the images still get the HP/attack boost?
Your images will get the hp boost because armlet gives you +25 str, which is carried over to your images. They, however, don't get the IAS bonus since it's a direct IAS increase and not through agility.

Quote:
I think I'll stick with Vladimirs
Why get vlads? Your images don't get ANYTHING from the item. No lifesteal, no damage bonus aura, no armor aura, no nothing.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:57 AM   #29
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I'll try to answer some of the mechanics questions here as best I can.

The following can be used by images:
Stats. Direct hp or mana boosts. Innate magic resistance. Feedback (melee only IIRC), critical strike, evasion, movement speed, % movement speed, truesight and radiance immolation.
The following cannot be used by images:
Direct armor boosts, magic resistance from items, regen, direct attack speed (IAS), direct damage boosts, mini-stuns, bash, cleave, damage return, damage block and all orbs that aren't feedback do not work with images.

The armlet strength boost will carry over. The IAS will not. The degen will not be on, but the item will appear activated in the inventory.

Aura's show up on images, but they do not actually affect them. In other words, they will have increased damage and armor numbers, but not the corresponding improvements. Some other buffs also give the appearance of working but won't (fake lifesteal animation, fake bashes, etc).
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Old 06-16-2009, 04:04 AM   #30
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Quote:
I'm not actually sure if the degen will be on. I'd guess not, but would need to test it.
They don't get the degen.

Quote:
I'm unsure about how auras are carried by images. They can certainly receive auras (so Vlad's will increase damage from images by 15%),
No they don't. They don't get anything from vlads. They get the lifesteal ANIMATION, but no lifesteal. They get the NUMBERS from the bonus damage aura, but no bonus damage.
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Old 06-16-2009, 04:05 AM   #31
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That was actually really quick. Armlet degen does not go onto images, but the stat buff does. Images can't carry auras (at least not any of the three on vlad's).
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Old 06-16-2009, 04:09 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Leon View Post
They don't get the degen.


No they don't. They don't get anything from vlads. They get the lifesteal ANIMATION, but no lifesteal. They get the NUMBERS from the bonus damage aura, but no bonus damage.
exactly... this is why people make fun of PL and slithice with vlads alot.
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Old 06-16-2009, 04:16 AM   #33
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Quote:
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No they don't. They don't get anything from vlads.
Thanks for the catch. A bit more testing agrees with you. Original response edited to be free of lies.
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Old 06-16-2009, 04:43 AM   #34
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Hmm.

Try and get the hang of armlet. Its like the most powerful item available for STR guys out there with an insta 475 heal, so to speak.

In case your the only carry in your team, going armlet is fine.
But if there is a better carry, say Troll,Void,TB and so on, i'd you pick the ganking route.

He has high attack, and move speed. Coupled with a possible 4s stun and a blink, your a superb ganker. Take an ally and go ganking.
Diffusal helps in ganking a LOT.

I usually go, 2xbracers, bottle, diffusal.
If game goes into late, and your carry sucks, make manta and wreak havoc.

2x Gauntlets, trees, bottle, boots, PT, diffusal.. in that order. Just keep ganking.
He rocks.

Try using armlet in 6.59d AI versions if your still not confident about using it against players.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:21 AM   #35
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2 bracers->PT's(str)->Armlet

Not getting Armlet on CK, Is beyond my understanding. The best item for you in the game cost worthy.

After that you buy what you need. It could be a BKB or AC,HOT,DESO.DIFFU->MANTA. What ever the enemy team lineup requires you to be.
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:18 PM   #36
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the only reasons why I think vlads is okay for nessaj are:

1) lifesteal; i know images dont get em...but what about the real dude? X3 crit + lifesteal isn't something you'd laugh about...and his ulti's cd isn't exactly....spammable like say....Naga Siren or Terrorblade

2) mana regen: umm....yeah. he's not exactly lich. In a clash/push, I activate his ulti, and I find myself with enough mana for only 1 - 2 stuns and 1 blink.

to sum up, these are the "core items" i'd usually get on nessaj (in order of rushing):

2 bracers
vlads
Armlet
str treads

*I get boots BEFORE rushing vlads
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:48 PM   #37
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Why is lifesteal such an overrated orb effect? For one, if you really REALLY want to get vlads' auras, you can might as well have your support heroes get it. You still get the same effects but it frees you an item slot and 2k worth of gold. Ever wonder why it's on the SUPPORT Vestments shop?

Quote:
2 bracers
vlads
Armlet
str treads
So, you rush vlads at early game? To really benefit from lifesteal, you have to be constantly attacking and in early game this means auto attack, but we all know auto attacking early is fail because it pushes your creeps too fast and you might even get denied. If you're going to stick to last hitting, why did you rush lifesteal in the first place?
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:02 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Leon View Post
So, you rush vlads at early game? To really benefit from lifesteal, you have to be constantly attacking and in early game this means auto attack, but we all know auto attacking early is fail because it pushes your creeps too fast and you might even get denied. If you're going to stick to last hitting, why did you rush lifesteal in the first place?
Well, don't forget that the damage on Vlad's is also quite good early game for Nessaj, given his high base damage.

And one of the reasons why I like it is that while it doesn't boost my ultimate, I usually kill pretty much anyone anytime I use that anyways (unless they have powerful AoE attacks or AoE stuns). Vladimir's is there primarily to (a) let me better tank and kill creep waves through crits that drain massive amounts, and (b) increase my own damage and mana regen. As has already been stated, Nessaj has significant mana problems once he starts using Phantasm, up until you get 4-5 points into Attribute Bonus.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:35 PM   #39
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Well, if you're going to stick with your items, I would say that in reality, vlads isn't the best on him. I had a bad habit of getting vlads early, and it isnt worth it. You just dont do enough damage early to make it worthwhile. Helm of the Dominator is a lot better, and you can get the helm of iron will early for regen and armor, and work for treads and SNY. Linkens is ok, but I think that a battle fury would be better for him, since the damage and regen is nice (though fury isnt the best, it will help you farm a bit better). Bracer things to start and tangoes, and try to pick up the helm of iron will in the side shop. I would avoid an armlet on him until you're confident in using armlet (though I'm not a huge fan of armlet on him)

Here's a big thing to keep in mind. If you have helm of the dominator and a reaver, try your hardest to turn the reaver into a heart, and then get a second reaver to make satanic (if game goes that long). A heart and HoD is better than a satanic and 2300
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:35 PM   #40
retic
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i prefer vlads over a 3rd bracer

reason why I like vlads is because in a clash, i'm not just stunning; i'll also be "autoattacking" the ganked hero.

And I still think a vlads or ROB will help my mana problems better than a 3rd bracer.
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