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Old 02-05-2011, 01:27 AM   #41
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Default Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank


A carry is a hero that consistently deals damage (effectively killing heroes) through/at certain periods of the game.

A ganker is a hero that is able to roam or travel around the map and apply his skills to get a kill, this is usually and/or dependent on certain timings that allow effective moment and/or rewards. Such as Balanar's night bonus.

A tank is a hero that consistenly absorbs damage and/or can keep at certain level of EHP with consideration of armour, HP regen. or any other type of reduction.
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Old 02-05-2011, 01:51 AM   #42
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

Carry - Either efficient in killing heroes once farmed or tilts the momentum in the game to their favor(ironically, most late-game heroes need momentum to be able to get enough farm to rape enemies)

Ganker - Kills the enemy heroes so that the carry can farm safely and to keep opponents at bay. Most gankers use the gold they earn from killing to become the semi-carry in case the carry falls short of his role.

Tank - Uses psychology and other methods to coerce the enemy into thinking that he is a threat and absorbs all the nukes and damage for the team.
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Old 02-05-2011, 02:10 AM   #43
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

"Tanks don't exist" simply because you don't like the name "tank". Generally, heroes that most ppl call "tanks" convert to carries lategame with good farm.

Take a centaur, with his blink, but also dealing almost 400 physical dmg with every hit. Thats huge damage, combined with double edge, if you don't do anything about him he will end up killing your entire team. And that's when Return comes in. The "tank" skills are made for you to use them. Same with spectre, Dispersion is worth nothing if the enemy doesn't focus you. But you end up forcing them to do so, or else they get obliterated.
Medusa and BB have the same concept, and also does Razor to certain extent.

All of these heroes were considered broken and completely overpowered in their time, except Centaur; and that is because he has bigger problems than the others in becoming a threat (also Return was shit before the buff).

OT: a Carry is someone that "carries" his team to victory. Mostly, the heroes labeled as carries are DPS ones that reach their maximum power lategame. These heroes are "carries" simply because they suck at every other thing (hardcarries) or they are much better lategame than midgame or earlygame (carries alone).

I don't like the classification "ganker". Most gankers end up being either semi carries or supporters. The other way around, most supporters spend their time "ganking" or trilaning early, and so do the semicarries. I like the way the Chinese classifies them, as "utility" heros, a label that covers semi-carries/gankers/initiators like Pugna/Enigma/Visage/WR or those heroes that aren't pure supports but neither carries.
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:25 AM   #44
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

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Originally Posted by KoR.zERo.DVL View Post
Not because DK has high armor doesnt mean his a good tank.
1st of all, tanks eats both physical and magical damage.
Tanks eat both physical and magical damage. So what? if there are a lot of nukers and you want to tank, you can buy a bunch of HPs, a Hood, or a mix of both. And if there is a lot of physical damage dealers you can buy a Vanguard.

Quote:
3rd, DK HP isnt high.
No, DK's HP is not as high as a Centaur perhaps but that doesn't mean he can't be a tank. It will still be definitely higher than a Viper or most other AGI's for instance. And most INT's too. And if you still think you're falling short of HPs you can buy a Vit Booster/Vanguard and tank npnp.

Quote:
It will work as a tank, but not like other tanks with impressive HP.
but it will work well enough in most lineups and that's what matters.
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:30 AM   #45
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

^Vang? HOOD? When you can buy some DPS items to rip them apart.

men stop with it, its ridiculous
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:35 AM   #46
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

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Originally Posted by KoR.zERo.DVL View Post
^Vang? HOOD? When you can buy some DPS items to rip them apart.
Yeah. Instead of buying a 2K something Vang, let's buy a 5K something Buriza or a 6K Rapier to rip them apart. Problem? Yes. Those DPS items cost twice as much. Meanwhile, WE are getting ripped apart.
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:40 AM   #47
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

^ ARMLET costs 2800
Cryta costs 2150
Hyperstone costs 2100
HotD costs 1850

its just your choice what to get.
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Old 02-05-2011, 12:05 PM   #48
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

i think its time to have an official term/format for each role a hero plays. Roles will now be defined in such format the time when the maximum potential is reached][roles that are played at the time when maximum potential is reached][(semi-)carry/ganker]
For example, early to mid game disabler ganker CM, mid game dps ganker lycan

Here is the explanation y i chose this format.

Time where maximum potential is reached- early, early to mid, mid, mid to late, late and early to late(imba hero??) game


Roles that are played at that time when the maximum potential is reached
1. Disabler
2. Tank
3. Support
4. Dps-er
5. Hybrid of any 2 of the above roles.

Reason for putting carry or ganker
To carry means to farm your core and luxury items out while to gank means to search and kill other heroes. I believe only through killing heroes or killing creeps are the only way to obtain gold. Thus the way to obtain gold would be the in the third parentheses.



OT: Carry - someone who needs to farm in order reach its maximum potential in other roles. Such as mid-late game tank carry Alch, nercolyte

Ganker - someone who roam around the map searching for enemy heroes, especially carries, to kill.

Tank - someone who is able to soak up huge amt. of dmg or someone who at the front line, deliberately making the enemy attack him first before targeting the support/carry at the back.
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Old 02-05-2011, 12:37 PM   #49
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

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Originally Posted by KoR.zERo.DVL View Post
^ ARMLET costs 2800
Armlet takes your HP away too. Look, I know what DPS items to buy. My point still persists though, he can be a tank if it's needed, and you can't deny that.
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Old 02-05-2011, 01:12 PM   #50
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

^ Anyone can do a certain role. I cant deny that.

But pointing what he is at best, I can point that out even though you deny it 421453634612asdfghjkl423421 times
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Old 02-05-2011, 01:24 PM   #51
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

Tanks do exist, but only if you know how to play them. The people put it here quite bluntly that players always aim for squishies first; but have you ever tried a line-up with 5 squishies? Enjoy getting team-wiped by one Sand King or SF ultimate.
In fact, tanky heroes like Panda and Centaur do have a role before getting dagger: walking up before the battle and try to eat as many nukes as possible. They're the people who walk up to the enemy initiator to disable daggers; they're the people who walk into fog before others; they're the people who just try and rambo into enemy lines. If you spread out and kite, Centaur's allied Lion/VS/CM can walk out of some nearby fog of war and easily catch you out of position, then chain disables against you, with your allies conveniently far away due to kiting Centaur. Ignore him, and he'll stun at least 3 heroes.

In a nutshell, you can't easily win without a tanky hero. Without them, two AOE's from the fog will wipe your whole team.
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Old 02-05-2011, 03:28 PM   #52
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

Thanks for the help. I figured this topic would induce walls of text. Between all opinions I was able to discern a couple of key elements. Any well balanced hero(i.e. Necro, Morph, PA etc) can be built to pretty much suit the needs of the game. The only thing that will define their roles are the styles and hero choices of the other team.

Which brings me to my next point. Counter picking. I have again read a lot about counters to certain heros( eg. Lion counter for PA). Lion has disable and massive instant dmg and PA can usually only counter physical. That is an obvious counter. But who is Alch counter? There are some heros that req you to pick a counter and some that you can get by in choosing just a stun to counter. Wouldn't the definition of a carry then be construed as any hero that you have to pick a direct counter to?
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Old 02-05-2011, 10:17 PM   #53
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

^ that's not a very good definition, considering alche and invoker(who are versatile and harder to counter) can both carry to a good extent, alche by farming fast and using his nuke to help his high physical dps, and invoker through his array of spells and high physical dps.

Alche builds tank? easy, counter with naix. But how do you know he'll build tank? He could just as easily go for ganking, carrying, he could even decide to be the supporter. Invoker is the same, except invoker can't tank.

As for this stuff about tanking not existing, tanks do exist. They are important, too. The best example of a tank would probably be panda. If you let him stay in the fight, he's a real threat with his crit, nuke, slow+miss chance, and his high dps even without crit. He's hard to take down, and has his ultimate available if needed. However, he has to know his limits(important for tanks). If he gets down to 25 hp, ults, and rushes in to kill, he has to pull back to safety before ult runs out, or he's gonna get fucked over.

There IS, however, no such thing as a pure tank, but all tanks can also initiate. Does this make es and mag tanks? Nope, they have nothing to help them sustain damage other than their hp, and neither have massive growths. However, tide can initiate, has ways of sustaining damage(kraken shell) and is a continuous threat launching out gush's and dealing decent dps, continuously being a threat, while that dangerous drow behind him is ready to back off if you try to hit her.

I will agree that cent isn't a good tank. He doesn't draw threat after he initiates, he has no means. He's an initiator and ganker, just a more endurant and less damage dealing form of es, except he has good carry potential with his freakish strength from ult.

So, tanks are heroes who deal continuous threat AFTER initiating, and have enough hp to survive. It would be a victory for the enemy to destroy them, and they may even be top priority for how scary they are. The carries and supports will be careful about allowing you to be nearby, while the tank is continuously hitting you and really fucking you up. This works in teamfights too, but requires more coordination, and the tank is highly likely to die if he isn't careful.

Does this make roof a tank? He has a means of surviving damage, and can initiate, after all. No, he doesn't provide constant threat. How about a tanky mort with dps items? No, she can't initiate. How about spec? She can't initiate as well as most tanks, but she provides the constant threat, consider her a tank-carry, not a true tank, just a carry with tankiness on her side. Medu also falls into this category, as she's a carry, but can tank plenty of damage.

Tanks, thus, have two categories. Initiator tanks who can provide a good initiation to the fight, and are a constant threat. These guys tank through the whole game, peaking at the very latest in mid game. Carry tanks who are more accurately called, "those carries who are fucking hard to kill". They aren't true tanks, as they lack initiation power, but can sustain damage and are very much a continuous threat.

But that's just my 2 cents on that
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:54 AM   #54
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

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Originally Posted by Shergal View Post
Take a centaur, with his blink, but also dealing almost 400 physical dmg with every hit.
Pretty sure Cent doesn't get to deal 400 dmg per hit with his common item build and Radi alone.
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Old 08-14-2011, 05:06 PM   #55
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

In dota there are 5 main Roles

Hard-Carry:

A Late Game Monster that can Deals tremendous amount of damage having scaling based and team fighting skills with Good survivabilty and can easily face more than 1 heros alone

e.g: Spec,DK,Morph,Void,Necro,Sylla-Bear

Semi-Carry:

A Decent Late Gamer having Ganking and pushing potential also have some team fighting skills easily kill 1 or more heros if have decent items

e.g:Potm,SF,Slardar,Storm,Alchi,Razor

Utility:

A special hero he changes his role depends on game he can farm well,push,support,gank and carry with his skills He has good team fighting skills but this hero is too Squishy to face multiple heros alone

e.g:Invoker,Puck,Rexxar,Bat,Veno,Rhasta

Gankers:

Ganker are mid game heros their job is to hunt dowm enemy Hard carry and don't let him make his Core item if u gank too much their Hard carry then go for Semi-Carry but Ganker only kill one target at time thats why he lose his potential Late game because in Late game only team fight occurs

DPSer:

Type of ganker play on physical attacks

e.g:Seeker,riki,bounty,clinkz

Caster:

Type of ganker that have some magical nukes and disables

e.g:Lion,Tiny,Clockwerk,Bane-Elemental

Supporter:

Supporter are the early game hero their job is to baby sit Hard-Carry,gank with ganker and semi-carry and wards the map he has good skills that benefit the whole team

e.g:Venge,CM,Shaker,Lich,WD,Tide

*In dota their are 5 roles as i mentioned but only one role is assigned to a hero but they played in different styles,In dota there are many styles

e.g:Tank,Push,Initiate,Scout,Chase,Jungle,Mid-solo
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Old 08-14-2011, 05:35 PM   #56
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

Carry - Hero which at any stage of the game carries his team to victory. As in early game there's not thaaaat much difference in heroes power, it is hard to define a carry in early game. And as in later stages of the game lots of hero power comes from items, it is pretty viable statement, that heroes which takes most of the farm in a team are carries.

Tank - tanks are mostly hard to take down, extremely annoying heroes. They may be either the ones to start the fight, making you focus them because there's no other target available (Clock hook -> cog, before his team will came to the fight ~2 sec will pass), or have strong overtime effects/spammable spells (Bristleback spamming quill sprays and burning with radiance aura, Necrolyte with his aoe nuke/heal and degen aura), or are a bulky dps hero (Dusa with manashield, Morphling with Morph). Hero who just have huge survivability, but doesn't pose a serious threat can't be classified as a tank, just as hard to kill.

Ganker - hero which spend majority of his time Goin Around N Killin
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:02 PM   #57
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

My eyes bleed at the massive walls of text and theorycrafting here.

My TL;DR definition for those terms here:

Carry : something that pwns ppl but needs items
Ganker: something that pwns ppl without items
Tank: something that doesn't exist in DotA

there you go
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:33 PM   #58
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

^+1

Carry comes from carrying the team to victory. It could be Tinker, it could be Traxex, it could be even CM or Pudge. There are certain heroes that are more inclined to being carries than others, though. These are the heroes that need less and less support to own the enemy team as the game progresses. Traxex fits these criteria, while CM and Pudge don't. Tinker is too fluid to tell.

A Ganker can gank and kill successfully. Pudge and Tinker can. CM can, paired with another hero. Traxex could but is most likely to fail.

A tank is someone who focuses fire on himself, keeping it off the rest of his team. The only tank is Axe.
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:48 PM   #59
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

Carry - Powerful in the later part of the game, has an escape mech, and can farm really well.

Ganker - The one who roams, has stun or 2 slows (disable to be exact) and kills early to mid game. Has high mobility.

Tank - The one who eats the enemy nukes, has 1 disable or mass damage. (Doom, Tide, Razor, Necrolyte, Alche)

Support - The one who helps the Carry to get fat. They have a disable AND slow to begin with. (Venge, Rylai, etc.)
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They should also add a gank ping, an I'm farming ping, a lets rosh ping, a rune ping, an I gotta shop theme, a BUY A GODDAMN COURIER ping, a PUT A WARD HERE ping , a use your ulti ping, a DUDE NICE JOB ping, an OMG YOU NOOB ping, a GG ping, a SENDING 23423423 couriers to mess with you ping, a BLACK HOOOOOLLLE ping, a OMG WTF 5 INT? ping, a OMG HELP BS JUST RUPTURED ME ping, a WERE SCREWED THEY PICKED ANTI MAGE ping
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:51 PM   #60
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

Axe is the only true tank.

Deal. With. It.
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Old 08-14-2011, 10:24 PM   #61
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

Well you can see a lot of definitions for carry heroes, but most of them are wrong. Carry hero is not one that needs items lategame or whatever. Carry hero is hero that basically takes solo position in his line and takes all farm (i mean solo as is hes the solo hero that farms), and it is any hero that picked for that purpose. Carry heroes are divided to solo hard(don't mistake with hard carry)- hero that usually plays against triple lanes - clock, wr,ds,qop, necro, potm ; solo mid-obvious one, heroes like doom,invoker,batrider,sf,aa; and carry on triple cud be usual carry aimed for early win - panda,zombie,cent,slardar, chaos knight or it could be hard carry which aims for a long game spectre,trax,morph, weaver are most classicals examples of this role. All other heroes picked are supports, and one of them is usually a full sup (all kind of wards)- cm,vs,wd and another one is farming sup which is strong without items but with some rapes a lot es,ench,chen, necrolic. Depends on team decisions roles can alter between carries and supports, so thats why lich is seen as very good hero because he can do support, solomid and solo hard.
As for gankers, i think this is wrong word. Imo there are no gankers in cw games. You can have roaming supports and ganks by them, but there are no ganker heroes.
Lastly, in pub games heroes who can take a lot of damage are called tanks, but they dont understand that a lot of heroes can tank damage very succesfully with right items, so if they say no tank you shud consider ur hero skills, despite magina has 1000 hp with pt vanguard he still capable of going trough many nukes and damage such as weaver. They dont really exist in organised games, ofc someone in team usually is capable of tanking a lot of damage, but any hero dies really quickly if focused by 5 players. It really hard to write about it cuz there are really no tanks in dota.
So thats all.
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Old 08-14-2011, 10:47 PM   #62
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Default Re: Define Carry, Ganker, and Tank

The only thing I think I can add to topic that people didn't spend walls of texts written is that no one defined support correctly.Support is a hero with skills that benefit your allies instead of doing harm to enemies itself.Best example of that would be Dazzle,with a heal,a 5s immortality and a armor increasing skill.

What people call supporters are,in fact, disablers or babysitters.Disabler is a hero which specializes in disabling enemies,while babysitters are heroes that aren't much gold/level intensive,and so,they are the ones who gets the courier,wards,and the ones who die more due to little farm and constant exposure.

Disablers are completely different from supporters.Omni is support,yet he is level intensive,while VS/CM are disablers and babysitters and aren't much level/gold intensive.VS is a supporter when you think about Command Aura,but that isn't her primary role,and CM is a supporter when you think about global MP regen aura.
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