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Old 02-15-2011, 12:17 AM   #1
JeanLucPicard
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Default Dazzle skill build


I recently got flamed for not taking early levels of weave (dazzles ultimate)...

Imo the skill needs to be delayed most of games.
Why?
In early/mid game Dazzle tends to babysit a carry and/or gank, and here I prefer an extra level in heal/poison/grave over armor.
At this point in game nukes do way more damage than DPS heroes, and an extra heal / grave / slow do much better imo...
I'd prefer early weave in a situation where my team was going a mass push strat, but it isn't really common in pubs...

The question is: Do I fail by skipping weave till level 10?
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:59 AM   #2
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nah, i think it depends on teams lineup, if you're more positioned as a roamer/ganker i think it's fine to skip, if more early teamfight + push + early rosh def lvl 6 is cool.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:14 AM   #3
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Default Re: Dazzle skill build
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I personally find no need for it until 10, unless you are skipping the last rank of Poison Touch for Weave at 9.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:17 AM   #4
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Default Re: Dazzle skill build
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Max Touch =>
Max Heal =>
Max Grave.

I don't take high priority of Weave early on UNLESS our team consists of a push lineup where that extra armor would come in handy against towers/creeps, other than that I usually leave it till levels 10 or above.

Reason why I don't value Weave that much in the early stages is because 1. it has very low AoE w/o Scepter/levels and 2. Magical DMG > Physical DMG in the early stages so that extra 4 armor or more wouldn't have made much of a difference anyways.

BTW, support Dazzle on trilanes is just fail IMO since it doesn't give an option to be aggressive, only passive. Besides, Dazzle with levels is a pretty good asset.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:18 AM   #5
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Depends. If there are not much physical damage early games (which is what usually happened most of the time), skip it.

Heal/Grave > Weave on that period of time where nuke rules over.

Get Touch only for 3 levels, because you only need the stun. Max Heals afterward.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:42 AM   #6
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nah, i think it depends on teams lineup, if you're more positioned as a roamer/ganker i think it's fine to skip, if more early teamfight + push + early rosh def lvl 6 is cool.
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:04 AM   #7
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Poision:2,3,5
Wave:1,7,8,9
Grave:4(7,8,9)
Ult: 6,11,16

If you're playing him like a semi you should be able to appreciate how good weave is on him.

Babysit SP is 2 years ago when he had the real "shallow grave".
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:19 AM   #8
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Weave is stupidly good. There's no reason not to take it early; you should be soloing Dazzle and the armor differential will make a huge deal when you gank the trilane.
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:53 AM   #9
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Default Re: Dazzle skill build
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lvl 8 is the perfect one for me to skill weave..
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmafa View Post
Weave is stupidly good. There's no reason not to take it early; you should be soloing Dazzle and the armor differential will make a huge deal when you gank the trilane.
First of all you should NEVER EVER N E V E R solo with dazzle. That is the worst thing you could possibly do in dota, yes, even worse than starting with boots.

Second, the time that weave need to reduce the armor is really long and will not effectively work in a gank. That skill is only for team clashes.

The rest of Dazzle skills ares just too good to skip them.

As i just said lvl 8 is the perfect one.

wave/posion/poison/grave/poison/wave/wave/weave
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmenca View Post
First of all you should NEVER EVER N E V E R solo with dazzle. That is the worst thing you could possibly do in dota, yes, even worse than starting with boots.

Second, the time that weave need to reduce the armor is really long and will not effectively work in a gank. That skill is only for team clashes.

The rest of Dazzle skills ares just too good to skip them.

As i just said lvl 8 is the perfect one.

wave/posion/poison/grave/poison/wave/wave/weave
Go back to THR2. I'll call you when we need a resident pub.
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:22 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by badmafa View Post
Go back to THR2. I'll call you when we need a resident pub.
PFFF yeah, solo with dazzle and what then? trilane with DR necro and wr?

/ok

Edit:

I just watched your profile: "Help me with my VG Tide guide"

/OKOK
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:24 AM   #13
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Default Re: Dazzle skill build
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dazzle is one of those heroes where all of his skills are good, but me i like having 4 spells at lv 6, since you can throw it early in a fight and then even if you die you would have contributed significantly.
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmenca View Post
First of all you should NEVER EVER N E V E R solo with dazzle. That is the worst thing you could possibly do in dota, yes, even worse than starting with boots.

Second, the time that weave need to reduce the armor is really long and will not effectively work in a gank. That skill is only for team clashes.

The rest of Dazzle skills ares just too good to skip them.

As i just said lvl 8 is the perfect one.

wave/posion/poison/grave/poison/wave/wave/weave
Dazzle is one of the strongest solos there is, especially vs Windrunner. You need to watch more competitive replays, preferably in the 6.70 area where he was used as a solo quite a few times by DTS and completely dominated the lane/game.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:52 AM   #15
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Default Re: Dazzle skill build
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can someone please find and link said replays ^^^^^^^?? OT i dont usually don't usually get weave until i'm lvl 10 unless im finding there being lotsa team fights when everyone is around lvl 6-8 which doesn't happen all the time.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:15 AM   #16
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I've always taken Weave at level 6. Its just really strong in smaller skirmishes and for saving people while your grave is on cool-down.

One small thing that should be mentioned is that Weave amplifies Poison Touch's damage much much more than taking another level of poison touch, simply because poison touch does physical damage.

Let us assume that you use Weave and Poison Touch almost together.

Your poison touch will be doing like 30-40% more extra damage from the 3rd tick of weave onwards and even more.

A general gank by SP happens this way. Ganker stuns--->SP Weaves--->hit/hit--->Poison Touch--->Hit/Hit easily lasting as much as 7-8 seconds allowing you last hit to be on a -8 armor unit. If you've ever seen Alchemist with maxed Spray at level 7. This Dazzle hurts as much as Alchemist hitting in that spray only offset by the fact is Dazzle is ranged and can get more hits in.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasioFX View Post
can someone please find and link said replays ^^^^^^^??
Certainly can link some.

GosuGamers DotA | Replay: DTS vs EHOME - The DTS Zoo replay. Dendi solo middle on SP.

GosuGamers DotA | Replay: FM vs PoT - Babar solo mid SP.

GosuGamers DotA | Replay: FM vs Virus - Babar solo mid again.

LotI
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:39 AM   #18
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Default Re: Dazzle skill build
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckOfTheIrish View Post
Certainly can link some.

GosuGamers DotA | Replay: DTS vs EHOME - The DTS Zoo replay. Dendi solo middle on SP.

GosuGamers DotA | Replay: FM vs PoT - Babar solo mid SP.

GosuGamers DotA | Replay: FM vs Virus - Babar solo mid again.

LotI
Also I would like to add another fantastic solo Dazzle

NWO vs LGD.sGty 1 (10/21/10) | Dota Commentaries

Dazzle soloing top vs Morph
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.ops_Freak View Post
Dazzle is one of the strongest solos there is, especially vs Windrunner. You need to watch more competitive replays, preferably in the 6.70 area where he was used as a solo quite a few times by DTS and completely dominated the lane/game.
Do you care to explain why the best babbysitter in the game should solo mid when he could be helping the carry/ semi-carry not to die? (Im not being sarcastic/agressive) Also he takes a lot of farm that he doesn't need. For me this strategy its the same as a WD soloing mid.. he can win many lanes easily but he works better in a trilane.

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Old 02-15-2011, 12:32 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmenca View Post
Do you care to explain why the best babbysitter in the game should solo mid when he could be helping the carry/ semi-carry not to die? (Im not being sarcastic/agressive) Also he takes a lot of farm that he doesn't need. For me this strategy its the same as a WD soloing mid.. he can win many lanes easily but he works better in a trilane.

Thanks
Except he doesn't because aside from shallow grave all his skills need levels to do anything at all. Besides, a trilane with dazzle will be incredibly defensive untill he hits level five (poison touch is crap before it's level 3).
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:36 PM   #21
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SP babysit is like so 2 years ago. Level 8 SP > Level 4 SP any day.
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:56 PM   #22
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GosuGamers DotA | Replay: 60lt vs FEARZ

More Dazzle solo
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmenca View Post
First of all you should NEVER EVER N E V E R solo with dazzle. That is the worst thing you could possibly do in dota, yes, even worse than starting with boots.

Second, the time that weave need to reduce the armor is really long and will not effectively work in a gank. That skill is only for team clashes.

The rest of Dazzle skills ares just too good to skip them.

As i just said lvl 8 is the perfect one.

wave/posion/poison/grave/poison/wave/wave/weave


You obviously have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to display some illusion of comprehension. Weave is one of the strongest ultimate in game expecially when it complements his other spells so well.

Rank 3 poision touch is when its disable peeks.
Rank 1 grave is all you need early because you are soloing not running around graving people
Higher ranks of heal shine in the mid-late fights where it really does a lot of work, not laning or ganking phases.

Weave is a skill that creates a massive armor differential and allows you to get kills and tank through the opposing hero to make it happen.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:16 PM   #24
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You obviously have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to display some illusion of comprehension. Weave is one of the strongest ultimate in game expecially when it complements his other spells so well.

Rank 3 poision touch is when its disable peeks.
Rank 1 grave is all you need early because you are soloing not running around graving people
Higher ranks of heal shine in the mid-late fights where it really does a lot of work, not laning or ganking phases.

Weave is a skill that creates a massive armor differential and allows you to get kills and tank through the opposing hero to make it happen.
Stop beying a copycat and start thinking by yourself... a trilane with dazzle could be really agressive... grave grants you the possibility to kill the enemy even under the enemy's tower. A dual lane with Dazzle is also a good option (with a roamer in jungle/ganking) He is agressive ---> wave also works as a nuke and IT HURTS. Just think of a clock + dazzle lane..
Just because it isn't used it doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Alche wasn't used till 6.66 and it was one of the "shit tier" heroes, neither bat.. What happened? They became top tier.. When people realize that Dazzle is one of the strongest heroes early game it will become top pick/ban IMO ...

Oh and i have more comprehension that you think.. start thinking by yourself
and stop watching shitty replays (european low lvl teams) and maybe you could bring out many new ideas. (sorry for my eyes-hurting english)
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:25 PM   #25
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Nice trying to turn it around after you got gangbanged.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:31 PM   #26
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Nice trying to turn it around after you got gangbanged.
HAHAHA yeah i need some 2000 posts to be seriously taken.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:35 PM   #27
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-armour skills are most effective during the early stages of the game since most agi only have some health due high armor, str without armor are dead meat.

I used to agree with it but it turned otu to be way to good.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:40 PM   #28
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HAHAHA yeah i need some 2000 posts to be seriously taken.
Neh, you just need to give people the impression you know what you're talking about. Incidentally, you should endeavor to know what you're talking about.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:43 PM   #29
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Neh, you just need to give people the impression you know what you're talking about. Incidentally, you should endeavor to know what you're talking about.
So i don't know what I'm talking about? How about your Vanguard Tide Guide?
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:47 PM   #30
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So i don't know what I'm talking about? How about your Vanguard Tide Guide?
Get trolled.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:47 PM   #31
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Poision:2,3,5
Wave:1,7,8,9
Grave:4(7,8,9)
Ult: 6,11,16.
This is how you should do it, maxing poison is unnecessary since lvl 3 gives you the full paralyzation effect.
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:24 PM   #32
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Stop beying a copycat and start thinking by yourself... a trilane with dazzle could be really agressive... grave grants you the possibility to kill the enemy even under the enemy's tower. A dual lane with Dazzle is also a good option (with a roamer in jungle/ganking) He is agressive ---> wave also works as a nuke and IT HURTS. Just think of a clock + dazzle lane..
Just because it isn't used it doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Alche wasn't used till 6.66 and it was one of the "shit tier" heroes, neither bat.. What happened? They became top tier.. When people realize that Dazzle is one of the strongest heroes early game it will become top pick/ban IMO ...

Oh and i have more comprehension that you think.. start thinking by yourself
and stop watching shitty replays (european low lvl teams) and maybe you could bring out many new ideas. (sorry for my eyes-hurting english)
I was doing this more than 3 months before DTS used it in a tournament. Your ridiculous accusations against me with a total lack of knowledge about me is baffling.


The only thing SP contributes to a trilane is grave, it takes too long for poison touch or heal to be good and too long to get weave. SP + Naga is one of the better lanes where SP can play as a support however dual lanes aren't in style. I would rather have an SP solo, Furion solo, and some trilane.

Furion gank with Sprout--> Touch --> Trees --> Heal is pretty strong against most of the field assuming SP has medallion like he probably should.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:40 PM   #33
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stop watching shitty replays (european low lvl teams)
Funny that you call DTS vs Ehome a "shitty replay" when the replay has nearly 75,000 downloads on GosuGamers. DTS = European low level team? They used Dazzle solo mid and beat Ehome, the Chinese top team of 2010.

Seriously, you don't have a clue what you're talking about
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:04 PM   #34
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^lolyes

dazzle sure as fuck solos nicely, i mean.. you pretty much cant kill him, he has nice dmg and range, you cant drive him out of lane, heal can be used to cs too... also, its kinda nice if he doesnt get gibbed in fights and actually can do stuff with his now existent hp. kinda lvl-dependant has been mentioned
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:14 PM   #35
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pub trilanes i often find lvl 1 shallow grave insufficient since it's less common to have the better positioning so i need the casting range. for scrims 1 lvl suffices.

i useally run to my lane without spending any skillpoint. And skill as soon as i need a slow, heal or grave.

after that

need more pressure on your lane max heal, need more killing power max slow, constantly facing heavy kill attemps, 2 lvls heal 2 lvls grave. 1 lvl slow(the ministun vs tp is invaluable)

Solo useally means you want the ult asap. which means a pushing tactic. and therefore max heal since it pushes the most. But if it's a ganking tactic with dazzle at a solo lane. max slow 1 lvl grave 1 lvl heal. If you want dazzle to solo a lane to create space on a different lane. 1 lvl heal to not push the lane to much but still being able to pressure sufficiently. 3 lvls grave. You need to stay as long as possible so casting range is important. and well a slow can save a life.

Also drop the debate whether dazzle should solo, it's more important to think about the fact that he CAN solo decently.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:28 PM   #36
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OK GUYS...
If I wanna say that for example YaphetS SF sucks I would post a replay where his SF sucked, not the one where his SF goes godlike in 5-6 minutes...
What's my point?
I downloaded 3 replays linked in topic (DTS-EHOME, FM-VIRUS, 60lt-FEARZ), and the results are:
Dendi: Weave @ 10, 11, 16
Babarrr: Weave @ 10, 11, -
Pinoy: Weave @ 10, 11, 16

The 4th one is where dazzle lost, but babarrr still took it @ 9,11,16

Can I get one where he makes use of his ulti BEFORE lvl 10?
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:34 PM   #37
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uh the replays were supposed to show that solo dazzle is both used in comp and effective
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:25 PM   #38
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Default Re: Dazzle skill build
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who needs skills when you got stats?
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:19 AM   #39
Elmenca
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Default Re: Dazzle skill build
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosArchangel View Post
Funny that you call DTS vs Ehome a "shitty replay" when the replay has nearly 75,000 downloads on GosuGamers. DTS = European low level team? They used Dazzle solo mid and beat Ehome, the Chinese top team of 2010.

Seriously, you don't have a clue what you're talking about
I'm not talking about DTS. I watched the live broadcast of that game. DTS is a really good, maybe top team of europe (maybe tied with MyM) The rest of the teams in europe are sh#t and i don't waste my time watching the replay of a team/ person who have a good skill in the game but not a OMGWTFRAPE skill like chineese teams.
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:24 AM   #40
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Default Re: Dazzle skill build
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Originally Posted by JeanLucPicard View Post
OK GUYS...
If I wanna say that for example YaphetS SF sucks I would post a replay where his SF sucked, not the one where his SF goes godlike in 5-6 minutes...
What's my point?
I downloaded 3 replays linked in topic (DTS-EHOME, FM-VIRUS, 60lt-FEARZ), and the results are:
Dendi: Weave @ 10, 11, 16
Babarrr: Weave @ 10, 11, -
Pinoy: Weave @ 10, 11, 16

The 4th one is where dazzle lost, but babarrr still took it @ 9,11,16

Can I get one where he makes use of his ulti BEFORE lvl 10?
Even if I failed arguing about solo dazzle, you just proved me with these replays that weave is not good low lvl. Take that badmafa
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