Suggestions forum discussion: Layout

[Vot1_Bear]

^Problem is, some OPs doesn't even bother to update the hero anymore.
Some left the forums to a better place after dumping their shit hero here
Some doesn't care about others' opinions, their hero is fine
Some listened to the complains, but they changed the hero into something worse.

[Captain Planet]

Originally Posted by Vot1_Bear

^Problem is, some OPs doesn't even bother to update the hero anymore.
Some left the forums to a better place after dumping their shit hero here
Some doesn't care about others' opinions, their hero is fine
Some listened to the complains, but they changed the hero into something worse.

Agreed. I think if a hero becomes really stagnant with few (if any) positive comments AND the suggestion isn't updated, then I think the thread could reasonably be closed. I think the biggest issue is that there aren't any suggesting regulations in place. If there were rules in place about minimum formatting and quality (the second one might be a bit hard) then members would eventually learn how to do things properly in the suggestions forum. A set of rules for the hero suggs forum is imperative, IMO, if we are to improve the overall quality of heroes being suggested.

[Vot1_Bear]

^Agreed, we need to have threads closed if the OP is inactive or such

Anyway, while minimum formatting can be done through rules, IMO quality control can be done by STICKYING a guide. A decent guide, that tells about (most importantly) Synergies and how to make "original, unique" skills.

[Mazil]

^ Quality control is more of a manual thing. Provided everyone follows a uniform and neat format. It will generally make that job easier; the two will flow on from one another.

The easiest way to get that would be (as it was suggested somewhere before) to have an online version of something like the hero maker.

With the inactive OP's, or even dead discussions, perhaps there can be an archived section? Closing the thread seems silly if there is worth in the ideas, and there had been good discussions. You need to keep the old and large threads somewhere, incase they contain ideas that could be useful later on.

[Captain Planet]

Exactly. If there are concrete suggestion formatting rules then it becomes easier to determine what's actually good and what's actually not. As it is, there are no such rules and I think there ought to be, so that there is some orderly approach to the hero suggestion forum especially. Creating a set of formatting and quality standard rules, then appointing sub-forum specific mods to enforce them is one way of doing things.

TL;DR: Fix the filtering and then fix the layout to suite.

[Wrooks]

Originally Posted by The][nquisitor

Exactly. If there are concrete suggestion formatting rules then it becomes easier to determine what's actually good and what's actually not. As it is, there are no such rules and I think there ought to be, so that there is some orderly approach to the hero suggestion forum especially. Creating a set of formatting and quality standard rules, then appointing sub-forum specific mods to enforce them is one way of doing things.

TL;DR: Fix the filtering and then fix the layout to suite.

What counts as inactive, one this is a forum, two this is most likely secondary to playing the game (Which takes about an hour) and being on this forum takes time out of leasure time which is short for many people. I do agree on rules but not rules about inactivity, some threads don't become active until a year, others a couple weeks, rarely a couple days or weeks.

Originally Posted by Vot1_Bear

Well then if there's "graphics crew" why can't this hero have "suggestions crew"? :P:

The only purpose I see for a suggestions crew is for test map creation. To get ideas across better, pictures are sometimes better than words.

Originally Posted by Fire525

^It is quite a good idea actually, and could work very well if implemented correctly. To help suggestions be properly formatted however, perhaps the site should also implement a browser based version of Sanguine's Hero Creator (Which can also make item/visual suggestions), in order to help suggesters to follow the template guidelines.

I tried to make this as short as possible. Basically Leave some room for creativity, I agree that a gui for suggestions would be nice. But, there still needs to be a way that people can come up with their own templates and still implement their hero in a gui fashion.

---------------------------------

Talking about gui's, how about if the op's posts or initial post could hang to the right or left and all subsequent posts could lay abreast to the initial post. It's a bit lazy but it makes it alittle easier to see what people were commenting on incase you missed something while reviewing. Also if posts by people you are quoting could lay abreast of the text box. Cause Alls I see is a wall of coding and it gets confusing sometimes. And a button for scrolling up and down the posts, so you dont have to scroll up or down the page.

[FleshTRNDstone]

My idea for the Filtering/Forum layout System,
might only work for:
HERO/SKILL/ITEM REMAKES and
NEW HERO SUGGESTIONS.
***
Basically, each hero would have their own
''Thread/Tab''
(don't quite know what's the correct term)
*
e.g under the Vengeful Spirit tab,
ANY and ALL suggestions concerning her
would be listed.
*
Major Catagories:
Skills
Visuals
***
***
As for New Heroes..
Each unused hero model, e.g Hydra, gets
their own tab, and all suggestions for a
future Hydra hero and skills, would be put
under there...
*
Major Catagories:
Unused W3FT models
Custom models
***
***
***
Don't know how IF and his Dev team goes
about creating heroes, but lets say, they
want to create the Hydra hero next, then
everything would conveniently be under
one tab,
OR
If people start complaing about hero X's
skill, then everything for that hero will be
there.
***
***
***
Lastly, there needs to be a place where
generally ''approved'' suggestions can go.
E.g there's a Slardar icons/visuals overhaul
(can't remember by who), and 90% of all
responses are extremely positive.
***
What this means is, lets say several people
have suggestions concerning X, then only
the best few would go to this advanced
shortlist.
***
***
Just wish this elitist attitude on the forums
could be eliminated, since a trend I'm seeing
is, people love picking other's suggestions
apart, but conveniently neglect to do the
same with theirs.
Tolerance to new forumers is also a
problem.
And lastly, a person can express their dislike
WITHOUT needing to be degrading, rude
and demeaning.
***
Best policy, if you don't approve, then just
move on to the next thread.

[FleshTRNDstone]

Forgot to put this in:
^should THIS be used...
*
All recent suggestions newer than 3 months,
would go under this.
The older ones would go into an Archives
section.
Worhty/popular/just plain good
suggestions would be systematically
worked back into the 'filing system' by
mods, or revived by fans of the particular
suggestion.
***
***
For my part, there could be THREE forums
for suggestions...
Yes, three...
*
FIRST SUB-FORUM:
CONCEPT
First is a concept discussions forums, where
you post the core concept of your idea.
With no or at least, minimal numbers.
Here, people can go wild all they want.
Also, here you try to get other people who
like and support your idea, and who would
want to help work on it, so that it turns into
a group effort.
Since currently, I see someone opening up a
suggsestion for e.g a visual, and people
comment on it and gives input, and in most
of the cases, even if the viewers'
suggestions are clearly better than the
suggestor's, they just ignore/dismiss it.
If I were IceFrog, I'd rather implement
something made by a group of skilled
people, than by a single person.
*
SECOND SUB-FORUM:
DISCUSSIONS
after the bad, just plain wrong, already
suggested stuff has weeded out by above
mentioned process, and after a suggestion
has been fairly fine-tuned, it moves over to
the DISCUSSIONS section.
At this point, there should be very little, if
any plain dislikes(t-downs).
Key here is, to discuss and improve what is
suggested.
Just like the current suggestions forum,
without all the flaming, demeaning, rude
and disrespectful comments.
Also, before they enter the discussion
forum, it needs to have been viewed by
mods.
*
THIRD SUB-FORUM
SHORT LIST
After a while, a certain suggestion, that
seems especially unique/promising, it could
be added here.
This list remains closed to non-forum staff
members.
This is the part where IFrog and his dev
team, and people actually in charge, gets to
view and discuss stuff.
This would be especially good for heroes,
items and abilities.
i.e only the best of the best would be sent
here.

[Captain Planet]

For the Item Suggestions, I think it might've been JJE92 who posted it, I saw an image which had another column when viewing the list of threads which had the item's icon. I think having that in conjunction with mandatory prefixes (like those in the Guides and Programming sections) would tidy up the Item forum npnp.

[Wrooks]

Originally Posted by The][nquisitor

For the Item Suggestions, I think it might've been JJE92 who posted it, I saw an image which had another column when viewing the list of threads which had the item's icon. I think having that in conjunction with mandatory prefixes (like those in the Guides and Programming sections) would tidy up the Item forum npnp.

It was me and the idea was td because of people thought that it would feed the elitism thats already on the forum.

[Captain Planet]

^Ok. I couldn't exactly remember who posted it. I don't think Axidos, in that case, is correct. People judge items based on different criteria. Judging something by name is just as "elitist" as judging it by it's icon (since both provide almost as little info about the item as each other), in the end, so I don't think it would be a problem including that icon column. As I've said, combining that with madatory prefixes like in the guides and programming sections would make the items forum much easier to use and to navigate AND to search.

[kitchen]

I don't get how showing the icons of the item threads would help anything.

[Captain Planet]

It can make items look more interesting to those viewing the forum at a first glance, which might actually make more item suggestions more view/reviewed.

[Wrooks]

Yea, I agree, often times people complain about there being to much of text. This creates alittle less text and more display of whats going on, yea it creates bias but we already have bias off of everything else displayed.

[Wrooks]

Have you guys been to the atheist forums... they have a drop down list instead of normal threads and posts (Kinda like the spoiler inside the spoiler kind of thing only for threads and posts). So what I am suggesting is we think outside the box, I'm not suggesting a drop down list because that gets annoying to read it much easier to read our format but to accommodate the needs of getting non looked at ideas viewed. I suggest we rethink the format of the threads within the hero forums.

Originally Posted by The][nquisitor

Sorting heroes into multiple subforums is not something I'd like to see personally. Not every hero falls neatly into a single role and so having mutiple subforums would be pointless. I think the current single forum is fine, it just needs to be tidied up a bit.

my point is that well if you only want to see a carry added to the game you can stick to carries sub forums instead of trying to review every suggestion there is. It makes things easier for reviewers, it won't solve the bump wars....I think we need a new system to solve that.

another idea, we should really get plugged into is rewarding good reviews and a good review count, maybe if you rack up enough positive review points you get the ability to make a suggestion. You get more points for reviewing non popular suggestions and less points for reviewing less popular suggestions. additionally you get other rewards also.

a final idea is that we come out with a group that does a weekly reviews on popular and non popular suggestions and that their threads be stickied....kinda like news and reviews can be geared towards certain audiences in mind

[E02K]

Originally Posted by The][nquisitoR

I'm not sure how to put this in a really cohesive way so imma just go "blurgh" and hope you guys can make some sense of this:

I sorta feel that maybe gameplay OR mechanics changing suggestions might get their own subforum, since they can be rather complex (like changing calculation mechanisms such as kill gold, gold loss, respawn times, etc) and thus need closer attention than they might otherwise get when mixed up in with minor fixes, new game modes, etc.

But I'm getting the feeling as I type this that it might not be necessary, but I do think that mechanics change suggestions in particular tend not to be reviewed (mostly because people are too lazy to actually think about the ramifications of the suggestion and calculate for themselves whether or not it's worth implementing).

Finally, one thing in particular I'd like to see would be officially held hero contests (I don't know about how they'd be run, I'd need to give it a lot of though, taking up time I don't have right now) where the winner (or top X number of heroes) are sent to IceFrog for his personal opinions on them, since the hero suggestion forum is the most neglected of all the suggestions forums by staff. Foede admits he steers clear (mostly because he's a lazy mod =D), I don't think I can remember the last time a mod took an active part in discussions within the forum, and I'd like to see that change. I think an official contest with actual "rewards" (as mentioned above) might be one solution.

So that might mean a special section of the forum that's only accessible/exists when an official contest is being held.

EDIT: Oh and I'd REALLY REALLY like to see the suggestion in the "Suggestions" thread about putting item icons in the list view when browsing the item suggestions forum. It would be a great visual addition to the forum and provides a little more upfront info about an item suggestion.

T-up for contest and
STOP WRITING WITH PINK, IT BURNS MY EYES

[Captain Planet]

Originally Posted by SHTO

T-up for contest Lol thanks
STOP WRITING WITH PINK, IT BURNS MY EYES Lol. I r not stopping

..

[E02K]

Originally Posted by LysanderXonora

Hero Suggestions should be like Guides, but mods should be allowed to closed nub suggestions with 0 creativity, over complexity, poor presentation etc if the OP does not remedy it in a given time frame.

This.
Like the Draft Guides they should be viewed and reviewed by anyone .Also it should have an Iron Fist mod if the creator of a suggestion decides that his hero is ready to go to Published heroes where it will be reviewed by IceFrog's hero suggestion viewers and people with experience like JJE92 and so on.

[Captain Planet]

Originally Posted by SHTO

This.
Like the Draft Guides they should be viewed and reviewed by anyone .Also it should have an Iron Fist mod if the creator of a suggestion decides that his hero is ready to go to Published heroes where it will be reviewed by IceFrog's hero suggestion viewers and people with experience like JJE92 and so on.

I think the members with the credentials to be like what you specified are:
JJE92 (obvious choice is obvious)
God of Death (however trolly he might be elsewhere)
NoThlnG (already a mod most active suggs member)
The][nquisitoR (2nd most active member in suggs forum)
Kriegzkanzler (if he ever becomes active again )

Others might be:
Vot1_Bear
kitchen
Sgt Failure (only in this list cos he's not always active either)

IMO there are a decent number of current members who'd be good candidates. And yeah, the draft section should be open to all members as well (like Draft Guides), thus allowing for completion of the suggestion.

However, when the suggestion is considered finished and is moved to the main forums, should only the OP be moved or the whole thread?

[Vot1_Bear]

^You forgot Xon. and maybe beary.