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Old 03-28-2011, 09:40 AM   #1
Lithary
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Lightbulb S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will burn!


Oi there.
I'm back from my DotA vacation and have some new ideas and stuff, but before that, I would like to talk about S&Y.
A little item that really fell on the bottom of the pit when it comes to items and for a reason called Matna Style.
How?
Well, Manta Style can give you everything that S&Y can (except greater Maim, but then again, Greater Maim is nothing compared to Mirror Image gained by Manta Style) and overall does it better.
It's that way mainly because of the illusions gained by Manta Style and even with the nerf on illusions for range heroes, I never find myself getting S&Y instead of Manta Style and thinking 'Yeah, I actually need S&Y now because it's better in this scenario than Manta Style.'
Maybe I'm missing something and would be nice if someone points that out, but still, I think that S&Y is actually an item that doesn't have it's actual place with other items.
So, what I suggest is a slight remake of this item in order to give it it's own and proper place place with other items and here it is.




• Recipe •


(Sange - 2150 gold)


(Yasha - 2150 gold)

Total: 4300 gold

• Bonuses •

+16 Agility
+16 Strength
+12 damage
+15 attack speed
Greater Maim (passive;15% chance on attack to slow movement speed and attack speed by 25% for 3 seconds and not an orb effect anymore)
+8% movement speed (passive; stacks with Yasha and Manta Style MS bonuses, but not with itself)

Note:
- Lesser Maim from Sange should also stop being orb effect and should give 15% chance to slow down enemy by 15% (both MS and AS) for 3 sec.
- MS bonus from Yasha and Manta Style should be reduced to 8%.


Changelog:
• March the 28th, 2011:
- Reduced MS bonus from 5 to 4% and decreased Greater Maim slow from 30 to 25% and duration from 4 to 3 seconds.
- Added sub-suggestion for Sange's Lesser Maim.

• May the 1st, 2011:
- Added sub-suggestion for Yasha's and Manta Style's MS bonus.
- Increased MS bonus from 4 to 8%.


So, all I changed is that Greater Maim is just a normal passive and not an orb effect anymore and reduced MS bonus, but made it stack with bonuses from Yasha and Manta Style.
I don't think that it's something too powerful since total MS bonus (if you have both S&Y and Y/MS) is 16%, witch isn't that much in my opinion and I never considered Greater Maim to be that great to begin with.
This will give S&Y it's proper and deserved place among other items.
Also, if you people don't like the change with MS bonus, tell me because main thing I wish to change is to turn Greater Maim from an orb effect to passive skill.
MS idea was something I came up along the way and think it's worth mentioning.
Still, if numbers need changing, tell me, but don't T-down the whole concept only because of the numbers.
Anyway, that's it, I think.
Tell me what do you think.


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Last edited by Lithary; 05-01-2011 at 02:48 PM.
Old 03-28-2011, 10:13 AM   #2
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Default Re: Sange & Yasha [Small Remake]

This is good. Simple, but good.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:51 AM   #3
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Default Re: Sange & Yasha [Small Remake]

IMBA
make hitter hero can buy lifesteal and SnY, make my Magina more IMBA ...

sorry T-Null
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:14 AM   #4
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Default Re: Sange & Yasha [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandi94 View Post
IMBA
make hitter hero can buy lifesteal and SnY, make my Magina more IMBA ...

sorry T-Null
Yeah, I'm aware numbers need to be fixed.
Still don't have any solid idea, but will think of something.
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Old 03-28-2011, 04:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: Sange & Yasha [Small Remake]

LOL at magina buying Lifesteal! <--- i doo hope its vlads


making the Maim not an orb would be a great improvement to S&Y, makes it a more viable choice imho..

not imba i think..

but good!

t-UP
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Old 03-28-2011, 06:31 PM   #6
Lithary
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Default Re: Sange & Yasha [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugaw View Post
LOL at magina buying Lifesteal! <--- i doo hope its vlads


making the Maim not an orb would be a great improvement to S&Y, makes it a more viable choice imho..

not imba i think..

but good!

t-UP
I also think that concept is not the problem, but number still need to be worked on.
I think I'll reduce MS by 1% and will think of on the way what to do with the maim.
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:35 AM   #7
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Bump!
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:57 AM   #8
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Well... Tnull
I like MS stacking, but your Greater Maim is too strong...SB, DK or Ursa would be annoying.
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Walrus View Post
Well... Tnull
I like MS stacking, but your Greater Maim is too strong...SB, DK or Ursa would be annoying.
I don't think that 25% slow for 3 sec is much so I don't think that there will be some large annoyances.
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Old 04-14-2011, 02:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Oh, Lithary, what were you smoking on your vacation^^? To be serious, I really don't think SnY fell on the bottom of the pit, have you seen like 50 latest competitive pro games? SnY is useful, and I think it maybe could use a tiny buff, but nothing as big as this is. Sorry.
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Old 04-14-2011, 04:11 PM   #11
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
Oh, Lithary, what were you smoking on your vacation^^? To be serious, I really don't think SnY fell on the bottom of the pit, have you seen like 50 latest competitive pro games? SnY is useful, and I think it maybe could use a tiny buff, but nothing as big as this is. Sorry.
Tell me one thing S&Y is better at than Manta?
Also, DotA should not be pro exclusive game.
Games are made to be fun, not job.
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

my nipples aint burnin so T-down


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Old 04-15-2011, 04:04 AM   #13
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

I only clicked because of the fear of my nipples catching on fire
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:05 AM   #14
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Wait: why does new any give only 4% ms?
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Old 04-15-2011, 12:28 PM   #15
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

T-up!
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Old 04-15-2011, 12:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathsDebator View Post
Wait: why does new any give only 4% ms?
Because it stacks with that of Manta Style and Yasha.
If you make Manta Style and S&Y and the same time, your MS bonus would increase to 14%.
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:10 AM   #17
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

I only want some increased stats that will be enough like +2-4 str/agi/dmg/atkspeed maybe +5% chance to maim.... No big changes only small buffs
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Old 04-16-2011, 06:10 AM   #18
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
Because it stacks with that of Manta Style and Yasha.
If you make Manta Style and S&Y and the same time, your MS bonus would increase to 14%.
So ur saying I make SnY just to get 4% MS so I that I can stack it with ANOTHER Yasha? Good luck convincing ppl to buy both Yasha and SnY for 14% IMS...
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathsDebator View Post
So ur saying I make SnY just to get 4% MS so I that I can stack it with ANOTHER Yasha? Good luck convincing ppl to buy both Yasha and SnY for 14% IMS...
I think this is a satire, don't take it seriously
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:40 AM   #20
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

OK. It has better build-up, it is mid-game more effective (Illusions sucks), it makes your more tanky, it's more universal, ranged manta is not quite good as it was, it has some kind of slow.

SnY is mid-targetted item which you want to build when you don't feel saving money for bigger items is a possibility.

And btw, playing/watching pro is MORE fun than pubs etc, but thats just opinion.
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:45 AM   #21
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

4% movespeed bonus does not sound profitable if you buy it...
buff it to something like 10-15
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Old 04-16-2011, 09:28 AM   #22
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
OK. It has better build-up,
True, but Manta's build-up isn't that hard ether.
I find myself build Sange or Yasha from one go since collecting 2-2.5K gold isn't that big of a deal as long as you don't die like a simple twat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
it is mid-game more effective (Illusions sucks),
Erm, illusions do not suck. >_>
Also, I would rather go for Janggo than S&Y any time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
it makes your more tanky,
So does Manta (and even more than S&Y because of illusions).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
it's more universal,
No it's not.
Manta gives int and S&Y don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
ranged manta is not quite good as it was,
But is till good enough and I honestly never ever saw anyone make S&Y on ranged hero instead of Manta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
it has some kind of slow.
That's right, 'some kind of slow'.
Some kind of crappy slow witch is seen once in every blue moon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
SnY is mid-targetted item which you want to build when you don't feel saving money for bigger items is a possibility.
I would rather go for Janggo then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
And btw, playing/watching pro is MORE fun than pubs etc, but thats just opinion.
That's your opinion.
I personally don't like it since it becomes more of a job than something that is suppose to be fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cairnebloodhoof View Post
4% movespeed bonus does not sound profitable if you buy it...
buff it to something like 10-15
The idea is that it can stack with that of Yasha and Manta Style.
Still, the main thing I wish to change is to turn orb effect into normal passive skill.
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Last edited by Lithary; 04-16-2011 at 05:51 PM.
Old 04-16-2011, 11:43 AM   #23
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

I like your point, because that was exactly what was I saying like 2 months ago (and all my previous, long, DotA life). Even Yaphets got SnY on his SF, and it's not once. I know very well that SnY is not a gamebreaking or a huge item.

Manta is usually a better item, giving a bit more DPS, + some DPS from illusion, possibility to juke with them against pub player. Nice bonus are stats and MS bonus. On the other hand, if you got Yasha first and you know that important clash is going to happen in a short moment, you often can't afford this Ultimate Orb. And Sange is not as bad, together as SnY it gives you nearly same DPS (without illusion), more STR, little better MS bonus and Maim.

I know, Maim is not absolutely the best orb effect here, but the importance of SnY lies in that build-up possibility. There are so many important moments when you really miss 200 gold for Ultimate Orb, and going in fight with hope for survival is just ineffective.

For melee heroes, I would never buy it because new Melee Manta is just much better.

So, in the end, I can say that I would be supportin some tiny buff to SnY, but there are other items which are much more underpowered and need buff (i.e Mjollnir, Stygian or Mask Of Madness.

Btw, I don't think very cool to lose part of MS bonus when upgrading Yasha to SnY, as you suggest, or will be this MS bonus of Yasha included in SnY? I can't see.
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

No more ORBeffect!

Congrats!
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:29 PM   #25
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

S&Y gives more MS than Manta.
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Old 05-01-2011, 02:46 PM   #26
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Default Re: S&Y[Remake] Take a look or your nipples will b

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryugo View Post
S&Y gives more MS than Manta.
True, but I don't see 2% difference as something that great since Manta Style actually has other better advantages over S&Y.
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