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Old 04-05-2011, 03:26 PM   #1
Saguine
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Default Terrorblade in Competitive


Upon the advent of 6.71, I was reasonably certain that both Spectre, Broodmother and Terrorblade would be the only viable melee agility carries. (edit: because I'm an idiot) Spectre has appeared in a lot of HL games, and Ferrari's Broodmother in the recent iCity tournament proves this. My main question is this:

Why isn't Terrorblade seen in higher level play?Would Terrorblade be viable in competitive play? I can visualize him in a long trilane. When his ranged form is up, he can run in the trilane Morph-style, last-hitting and getting kills, and while he's in melee form he bushes.

The two potential risks to this strategy are, firstly, that he is too fragile for a trilane, and secondly ganks into the bush while he is vulnerable. However, any decent trilane will do its best to defend the trilane carry, and while in the jungle he'll not only have images up but a comprehensive warding scheme can help deter this.

The bonuses of a strategy like this:
  • Terrorblade is a powerful DPS carry once farmed. Since his BKB and Manta buffs, he can go for conventional carry items.
  • While Terrorblade is out of his lane, the trilane can either farm or try to gank him. If they try to gank him it either denies their trilane carry farm, or leaves him vulnerable in the lane.
  • When TB is out of the lane, the two support heroes can gain exp without denying their trilane carry exp. This means that, when TB is in lane, the trilane is more powerful because the supports have level advantage, which in turn can give more kills to Terrorblade
  • Because of the support level advantage, they are less likely to feed mid- and late-game.

Overall, it lends power to both the lane and the team late game. While it would be best to fill the solo lanes with semi-carries, why wouldn't Terrorblade be picked on occasion in competitive?
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Last edited by Saguine; 04-05-2011 at 03:46 PM.
Old 04-05-2011, 03:26 PM   #2
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Permabanned hero is permabanned
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Since when is TB permabanned? Links? Hoisted by my own retard.
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:42 PM   #4
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

He is still unavailable in -cm.
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

God. I feel like an idiot now. I was sure that he was available.

OK, nonetheless: will TB be viable in competitive play?
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Almost definitely.
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

How would you play him?
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Put in a trilane with some pushing ability. Any support heroes can go with him (if you're pushing, Veno or THD might be a good idea, but you probably want a true stun as well). Soul Steal build.
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Hmmm. That's Soul Steal + Images? I'd rather go Images + Meta and then get a semicarry solo like AA in the trilane. That way, when I'm bushing the semicarry can get some farm and leveling. Meta also gives a minor HP boost, which is always nice.
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

SS is godly and not abusing it early would be silly.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:05 PM   #11
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

soulsteal is OH-PEE
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:08 PM   #12
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

SS/meta probably would be best for an aggressive trilane to help add his damage output being able to attack from afar

Images that early are really only good for pulling/jungling
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:20 PM   #13
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

After a bit of research, I can see that SS is quite amazing. 80hp/second effectively means that TB and co. can initiate on an enemy, and for the enemy trilane to retaliate they first have to break SS. So, basically, they can initiate without fear of counter-initiation.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Image should be kept at level 1 during laning, there is no other 'better' solutions. His images will be too fragile to do decent tanking, his damage is too low to compensate for the extra cost. As said, image's only use early would be as a scout/NC stacker, despite the tendency of comp players spamming their shit on a hero on first sight while crossing path
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:40 PM   #15
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

in most HL play they go -cmub nowadays. Still terrorblade isn't picked?
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:45 PM   #16
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saguine View Post
After a bit of research, I can see that SS is quite amazing. 80hp/second effectively means that TB and co. can initiate on an enemy, and for the enemy trilane to retaliate they first have to break SS. So, basically, they can initiate without fear of counter-initiation.
I'd say you should actually feel the hero out instead of sitting here, theorycrafting.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:50 PM   #17
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

I have been feeling him out (nohomo) but I guess I've been more focussed on my jungle-TB. Still in legacy mindset, which needs a change.
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:15 PM   #18
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Meta-SS-SS-image/stats-SS

There.

Its really not that difficult to trilane with tb
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

He can also easily solo against stuff like Doom, Clock, Rexxar, Puck etc.
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuneetRJ View Post
in most HL play they go -cmub nowadays. Still terrorblade isn't picked?
Prime Nations is the only arena for -cmub, and the decision to use -cmub was unanimously met with "huh?".
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:55 PM   #21
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Put him in a trilane like this:
1) CM, TB and WD, Why? CM will frezee the enemy hero, then you cast soul steal and WD cast Maledict, the fate of that poor guy is sealed
2) Ezalor, TB and AA, Why? Ezalor and AA cast mana leak in the enemy hero, the you proceed to cast Soul Steal on him, he canīt run or move.
3) Dazzle, TB and Furion, Why? Furion can jungle and go to gank to other lanes in any moment, also the combo Sprout + Soul Steal + Poison Touch is a rape, for sure.
4) CM, TB and Silencer, Why? You might want a hero like Silencer in you tea if you have TB to deny any Aoe combo whore like ES, plus you can freeze a enemy hero, cast Curse of the Silent and Soul Steal.

Another combos aout of he lanes are Invoker, you might want him in your line up has a solo hero in mid or top lane.
When he comes t gank, you can do the Cold Snap + Soul Steal combo for the lulz.
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:57 PM   #22
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Far too fragile in a 3lane imo. He doesn't benefit all that much from fast levels though, illusions are mostly only good for scouting at that point, and if you need metamorphosis to be able to LH, you're screwed anyway. Getting fast levels in soulsteal might add good lane survivability and some damage but if he's getting focused, it's not exactly going to help him much. Or the enemy will just focus on his teammates instead, he can't do anything about it, due to no disables.

This might sound silly but I only see him as a mid solo, getting fast levels in soulsteal enables him to either harass the enemy hero or use it on a creep to recover, with a CM in the team, he might be a very strong solo. Also, using illusions to scout for runes (maybe even get bottle for some reason) sounds pretty much like the extent of the usage of illusions that early in the game. Metamorphosis on level 1 is enough to add some extra pewpew when gankers arrive.

I pretty much don't see him as a good laner, but I could just as well be completely wrong, though we didn't even mention how well he'd work post-laning phase, pushing and farming like a boss, definitely a hard carry worth a slot in picks sometimes.
When he's able to get picked that is.
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:15 PM   #23
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Too fragile when bombard with heavy nukes.
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:39 AM   #24
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Here is a replay by ZSMJ - the best player of melee agility heroes.
Well played, good skill build and perfect timing - RR at dota.replays.net.
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Old 04-06-2011, 06:47 AM   #25
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Roccat.Trust playing unbanned mode with TB. search it.
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Old 04-06-2011, 08:25 AM   #26
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by phwaxr View Post
Roccat.Trust playing unbanned mode with TB. search it.
It is a showmatch game.
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:00 AM   #27
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

I've been effective playing TB in higher level "pub" games. The easiest way to own in PUB games is by doing the lothar + sunder + dagon combo.

But I've tried doing a build that would be viable for more competitive play by having decent laning early on and a bit tanky to deal enough damage toe-to-toe and this is how it should be done.

Forget about images + it exploits your mana for no reason and it doesn't help you in anyways when you're in a tri-lane.

1. Meta
2. Soul Steal
3. Meta
4. Soul Steal
5. Meta
6. Sunder
7. Meta
8. Soul Steal/Image (depends whether you're still in laning phase or want to go for push)
9. Soul Steal/Image (depends whether you're still in laning phase or want to go for push)
10. Image/Soul Steal
11. Sunder
12. Image/Soul Steal
..
Stats/Sunder...
..

Vanguard + PB + Soul Ring + BKB + SnY + Tarasque/Satanic
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:08 AM   #28
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Det7 View Post
I've been effective playing TB in higher level "pub" games. The easiest way to own in PUB games is by doing the lothar + sunder + dagon combo.

But I've tried doing a build that would be viable for more competitive play by having decent laning early on and a bit tanky to deal enough damage toe-to-toe and this is how it should be done.

Forget about images + it exploits your mana for no reason and it doesn't help you in anyways when you're in a tri-lane.

1. Meta
2. Soul Steal
3. Meta
4. Soul Steal
5. Meta
6. Sunder
7. Meta
8. Soul Steal/Image (depends whether you're still in laning phase or want to go for push)
9. Soul Steal/Image (depends whether you're still in laning phase or want to go for push)
10. Image/Soul Steal
11. Sunder
12. Image/Soul Steal
..
Stats/Sunder...
..

Vanguard + PB + Soul Ring + BKB + SnY + Tarasque/Satanic
If by high level you mean -em pubs, then yes this is exactly spot on!

Basically TB goes either as a tri-laner, or a jungler if possible.

Meta/ss/ss/image/ss/sunder/ss, then max meta and whatever, its not always necessary to max ss, sometimes getting level 2-3 SS is enough, but generally its good to max it.

As for items, QB, RoB/Soul Ring, and get treads, SNY, wand and x2-3 wraith bands by 20 minutes (easy if you jungle) and push and push and push, don't get items that won't help your images, after treads, SNY, items you could go for are radiance, bfly, HoT, Satanic, Manta, and perhaps even Skadi eventually.
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:14 AM   #29
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Max Soul Steal asap since it is your best skill.
Getting Counjure Image at early is unnecessary since you don't have enough mana to use it, and illusions are very fragile at early (usually Dark Seer takes Replica at level 13).
IMO you should take Metamorphosis after Soul Steal if playing in agressive way and one point of Meta then 3 levels of attribute bonus for offensive way. One point of Counjure Image at level 10 for jungling and Sundering with illusion.
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:53 AM   #30
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

I like 1 point of illusion for scouting if necessary, I mean especially in pubs where there may not be any wards, its always a good precaution if there are scary dudes miss. Also can be nice for mid-solo (lol) for scouting runes, mainly so that your opponent doesn't get them
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:59 PM   #31
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Please stop suggesting SnY for TB. We've got 6.71 now. Some people still think the same way like some versions ago.

I know SnY is a good item on TB but there is a very simple reason for why you should not get it:

Manta > SnY

TB is a pusher. Manta is by far the better choice on him. (no matter if some pro player still went for sny in a show match or whatever)

Always rush Manta as a first big item. Everything else is subpar.

Needless to say, don't get SnY after Manta either.

On topic, I think TB is totally viable. Exceptional great laning for a hard carry, top farming speed, insane late game. What else could you wish for?
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:12 PM   #32
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

SNY is good, try it. I honestly thought it was going to be crap, but it has been incredibly successful each time I have rushed it. Your images don't do shit early (well not manta ones anyway), and honestly they go down in 1 spell anyway, you are better off with the extra HP that SNY gives you.

I couldn't care less if some pro got SNY on TB, in fact it hardly matters because he isn't in the -cm pool, but from personal experience, rushing SNY is the way to go on TB.
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:21 PM   #33
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

almost all melee carries are forgotten from competitive, but with metamorphosis would be to overpowered.

can someone list heroes are banned from -cm? i know treant, NA, and terrorblade. just wondering if DK is banned.
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:35 PM   #34
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

can someone tell me what equips this zmjs build for his tb? replay inst working here

for equips, for terroblade i rush manta+treads+diffusal blade+buriza, his damage becomes insane with this, the only con to this build, he is too fragile
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:06 PM   #35
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnymarcell View Post
can someone list heroes are banned from -cm? i know treant, NA, and terrorblade. just wondering if DK is banned.
Wisp, Treant, Phoenix, Tuskar, Shadow Demon, Thrall, NA, TB.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:13 PM   #36
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

He's obviously viable, but not available in -cm. His SS in trilanes rocks with some disabler(e.g. Rhasta). His late potential is also insane.

Quote:
Upon the advent of 6.71, I was reasonably certain that both Spectre, Broodmother and Terrorblade would be the only viable melee agility carries.
lol.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:30 PM   #37
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by phwaxr View Post
SNY is good, try it. I honestly thought it was going to be crap, but it has been incredibly successful each time I have rushed it. Your images don't do shit early (well not manta ones anyway), and honestly they go down in 1 spell anyway, you are better off with the extra HP that SNY gives you.

I couldn't care less if some pro got SNY on TB, in fact it hardly matters because he isn't in the -cm pool, but from personal experience, rushing SNY is the way to go on TB.
As I said sny is good but manta is better.

6 str/12 dmg vs 10 agi/10 int, 15% chance to slow vs 2 extra images.

Images die fast early on but that's why it's great to have an extra set of them. You'll always have at least one image at hand which won't be the case without manta.

What should you do with TB when you've got your first big item ? (Be it manta or sny)
You should either push or farm more. Manta is better in both situations. So why would you get sny instead ?

Srsly. Try manta. You can push raxes with just treads+manta, it's funny.
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:08 PM   #38
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

I am pretty sure he will be used in competitive. SS has made a him a really good jungler and laner.

Just go for a cheap item build like Phase boots, wraith bands x 4, sny/manta and you can rape any hero midgame.
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:01 AM   #39
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

I'll be one to go against the grain here. I don't think he will see too much use other than experimentation, once he's released. Yes his laning problem is mostly fixed, and he's a great pusher/DPSer in the late game. But these days, those aren't the most relevant questions. I don't know why nobody has caught on, but DPS carries are not played anymore.

Look at the top carries in the current metagame: Morphling, Spectre, well mostly those 2. Now there's also Weaver, and occasionally Alche still gets played. Morphling is played for incredible survivability, potential to grab EB and instagib, and just all around imbaness. Spectre is stacked with Radiance, then just dominates with mass illusions and tanky Dispersion. Weaver is played for the mid-game domination and ridiculous survivability. Alche - unkillable Radiance+Acid Spray destruction. (I guess I should also include Brood and Sylla, who are played almost exclusively for their pushing power)

Apart from those, SF is still played as always, as well as a good number of casting semi-carries: Invoker, AA, WR, Pugna, Doom, whoever else I can't think of. My point is, all of these heroes can do more than shoot things to death. Most of these heroes are very strong throughout the mid-game. Whereas laning was key several months ago, I now believe mid-game is critical (since lanes are often given up).

Any way I see it, I just don't see TB to be useful through the mid-game. Nor do I see him doing anything special in the late-game. Maybe I just don't see it, but from what I know of the competitive scene, they're not looking for DPS (and don't argue that TB is a pusher because Sylla and Brood do it so much better).
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:11 AM   #40
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Default Re: Terrorblade in Competitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofanho View Post
can someone tell me what equips this zmjs build for his tb? replay inst working here

for equips, for terroblade i rush manta+treads+diffusal blade+buriza, his damage becomes insane with this, the only con to this build, he is too fragile
1.24b
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