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Old 04-12-2011, 10:19 AM   #1
Lithary
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Lightbulb I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wtf?


OK, I don't know when this happened, but today I played a game where I killed a guy next to the tower and got killed by the tower while I was running away from it after the kill.
Now, I should learn to be less greedy and think about my actions a bit better and that's fine.
What's not fine is that it counted that guy I have killed killed me even though he was dead long time ago and tower was one who dealt most of the damage and finishing blow.
This has happened more times, but I always thought that I was imagining things.
This time I was paying attention and no, I wasn't imagining it.
I personally think it's dumb and should be fixed.
If I got killed by the creeps, then my gold should be split among the enemy heroes equally and it shouldn't count that any player has killed me... since they didn't.
I don't know why and when was this implemented in DotA, but it sucks, is kinda dumb and should be removed in my opinion.
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:45 PM   #2
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Except that dude was the reason you got killed.

Even if he lured you into the tower and hit you just once, and the tower dealt 10000 damage to kill you, he was the one who caused you to towerdive like a dipshit.

That's why he gets the gold.
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

This feature very much depends on circumstance I think. Sometimes I've died, and 5 seconds later the tower kills the hero and I get the credit, which is dumb. And other times, as GoD said, you caused the tower dive and caused the death. It's 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other in the end (i.e., it doesn't matter, it all balances out).
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

This, to me, is really random.
At times, I do like, 3/4 of the enemy hero health and the creeps/tower kill it, but the Scourge gets the kill.
At times I do 1/4 and vice versa.
It's somewhat random somehow O.o
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:06 PM   #5
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

yeah sometimes I kill someone and damage another one but I am with like 10HP an creepwave comes and kills me...wtf he gets the kill? and I just say damn it it wasn't even his kill...and sometimes we rush in like three on one and creeps last hit and get kill....wtf?! what's that? then it doesn't count we did all damage?
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:07 PM   #6
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

This mechanics is buggy. One game your enemy attacks you and you lure him to tower, he dies to it without you dealing any damage and you get the kill.Other game you deal huge damage with Earthshaker bring down target to low hp, creep takes last hit and Sentinel has killed...
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Quote:
Originally Posted by God of Death View Post
Except that dude was the reason you got killed.

Even if he lured you into the tower and hit you just once, and the tower dealt 10000 damage to kill you, he was the one who caused you to towerdive like a dipshit.

That's why he gets the gold.
So, if we want to be fair, if I do most of the damage to a hero, I should get kill even if someone does a kill-steal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The ][nquisitor View Post
This feature very much depends on circumstance I think. Sometimes I've died, and 5 seconds later the tower kills the hero and I get the credit, which is dumb. And other times, as GoD said, you caused the tower dive and caused the death. It's 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other in the end (i.e., it doesn't matter, it all balances out).
Yeah, but it is still allover dumb concept.
To get a kill for a kill you did not make?
Ł0Ł
The idea behind kills is to kill opponents and you should be awarded with a kill only when you actually kill someone.
That is also the best balance.
Also, assistance is there in for those who did some/most job and didn't get the kill.
And I could swear that assistance is buggy as hell.
Sometimes I just appear and deal a single hit and get +8694932948348638863 gold and sometimes I do most of the job, but don't give a finishing blow and get +0.8694932948348638863 gold. >_>

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaruAthena View Post
This, to me, is really retarded.
At times, I do like, 3/4 of the enemy hero health and the creeps/tower kill it, but the Scourge gets the kill.
At times I do 1/4 and vice versa.
It's somewhat random somehow O.o
Fixed...
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

This feature is perfectly fine. Even if you just hit him once and he dies 5 secs later cause of creeps/tower, its still quite fair that you get the kill. The only reason he died was you. As it seems, you played save enough to not give him the possibility to kill you without suiciding or at least taking a high risk. Better than the scourge/sentinel getting the kill, cause then its split, and your allies didnt do anything for the kill if theyre on the other side of the map.
Towers and creeps are your tool to some extent, and if you use them its fair that you get the kill.
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
So, if we want to be fair, if I do most of the damage to a hero, I should get kill even if someone does a kill-steal?
No. In my example, the tower deals more damage.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:22 PM   #10
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnaLor View Post
This feature is perfectly fine. Even if you just hit him once and he dies 5 secs later cause of creeps/tower, its still quite fair that you get the kill. The only reason he died was you. As it seems, you played save enough to not give him the possibility to kill you without suiciding or at least taking a high risk. Better than the scourge/sentinel getting the kill, cause then its split, and your allies didnt do anything for the kill if theyre on the other side of the map.
Towers and creeps are your tool to some extent, and if you use them its fair that you get the kill.
No it's not, it's retarded.
You should get kills only when you actually kill someone.
How about then giving a kill to to you if he just rushes at the tower to get you and you don't hit him at all?
It was still you after all. >_>
And they are not your tools, they are tools of an entire team and that's why everyone in the team should get gold.
This mechanic is retarded and should be removed.
If you kill someone, you get kill and reward for it.
If you assist someone being killed, you will get assistance and reward for it.
It's simplest, most fair and most logical scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God of Death View Post
No. In my example, the tower deals more damage.
So then, I hit enemy hero once and I should get kill anyway even though other hero does rest of the job just because I was initiator of the battle?
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Old 04-13-2011, 06:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

You get the kill if you stun him or disables or slow and last hit by tower.
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

OK what about giving this:

Sentinels killed XY hero assisted by:XYZ hero...

Assisst should be only counted and not a full kill in this way...good enough?
About gold it is shared between the team but assisting hero gets more than others..
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flame13 View Post
OK what about giving this:

Sentinels killed XY hero assisted by:XYZ hero...

Assisst should be only counted and not a full kill in this way...good enough?
About gold it is shared between the team but assisting hero gets more than others..
Now this is actually reasonable and I like it.
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Guys.. you have it all wrong. The mechanics is NOT buggy. And it IS fair.

This has been implemented the same time or near the time Assists have been featured.


You see, this is how hero kills work:

When a Hero kills an enemy Hero = He gets the kill.
When 2 or more Heroes kill an enemy Hero = The killer gets the kill/ others have assists.
When The Sentinel/Scourge kills an enemy Hero while 2 or more Heroes assist = The Sentinel/Scourge gets the kill.
When The Sentinel/Scourge kills an enemy Hero with ONLY ONE hero assisting = That Hero gets the kill.
When The Sentinel/Scourge kills an enemy Hero with no one assisting = Obviously, they get the kill.

As you can see how the Assists system works, even a single attack or a puny damage from a particular Hero, will be considered an Assist.
So in your case, that hero in some way, dealt damage to you 1 or 10000 damage, its still an assist. So he gets the kill, since there was no other Hero around as well.

If you may notice, this system also applies on First Blood too.

Additional info: This type of system has been implemented because there are several scenarios in early versions where the creeps usually last hit the enemy, which obviously is very annoying. Thus, the solution.

Capiche'?
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Old 04-13-2011, 06:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

You probably don't remember how DotA was before this feature was implemented - creeps KS-ed all the time and it was very anoying.
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Old 04-13-2011, 06:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Quote:
You probably don't remember how DotA was before this feature was implemented - creeps KS-ed all the time and it was very anoying.
This was a terror back in the day.

But yeah. I think it was introduced the same time as assists were, if memory serves, so I'd imagine it's just based on if you're the only "assist" in the creep's kill.
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:20 PM   #17
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinuine View Post
Guys.. you have it all wrong. The mechanics is NOT buggy. And it IS fair.

This has been implemented the same time or near the time Assists have been featured.


You see, this is how hero kills work:

When a Hero kills an enemy Hero = He gets the kill.
When 2 or more Heroes kill an enemy Hero = The killer gets the kill/ others have assists.
When The Sentinel/Scourge kills an enemy Hero while 2 or more Heroes assist = The Sentinel/Scourge gets the kill.
When The Sentinel/Scourge kills an enemy Hero with ONLY ONE hero assisting = That Hero gets the kill.
When The Sentinel/Scourge kills an enemy Hero with no one assisting = Obviously, they get the kill.

As you can see how the Assists system works, even a single attack or a puny damage from a particular Hero, will be considered an Assist.
So in your case, that hero in some way, dealt damage to you 1 or 10000 damage, its still an assist. So he gets the kill, since there was no other Hero around as well.

If you may notice, this system also applies on First Blood too.

Additional info: This type of system has been implemented because there are several scenarios in early versions where the creeps usually last hit the enemy, which obviously is very annoying. Thus, the solution.

Capiche'?
Tinuine said it all.
/thread
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:23 PM   #18
Lithary
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinuine View Post
Guys.. you have it all wrong. The mechanics is NOT buggy. And it IS fair.

This has been implemented the same time or near the time Assists have been featured.


You see, this is how hero kills work:

When a Hero kills an enemy Hero = He gets the kill.
When 2 or more Heroes kill an enemy Hero = The killer gets the kill/ others have assists.
When The Sentinel/Scourge kills an enemy Hero while 2 or more Heroes assist = The Sentinel/Scourge gets the kill.
When The Sentinel/Scourge kills an enemy Hero with ONLY ONE hero assisting = That Hero gets the kill.
When The Sentinel/Scourge kills an enemy Hero with no one assisting = Obviously, they get the kill.

As you can see how the Assists system works, even a single attack or a puny damage from a particular Hero, will be considered an Assist.
So in your case, that hero in some way, dealt damage to you 1 or 10000 damage, its still an assist. So he gets the kill, since there was no other Hero around as well.

If you may notice, this system also applies on First Blood too.

Additional info: This type of system has been implemented because there are several scenarios in early versions where the creeps usually last hit the enemy, which obviously is very annoying. Thus, the solution.

Capiche'?
Yes, I get it and it's stupid.
There are much better ways to solve this problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninguem View Post
You probably don't remember how DotA was before this feature was implemented - creeps KS-ed all the time and it was very anoying.
Yes, I do remember it and I was fine with that since it's only logical that one who deals finishing blow gets the kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterlord View Post
This was a terror back in the day.

But yeah. I think it was introduced the same time as assists were, if memory serves, so I'd imagine it's just based on if you're the only "assist" in the creep's kill.
It would be somewhat OK if the system worked something like this (just remember that numbers are there to make example more clean and easier to understand).
Hero gets killed by Sentinel/Scourge.
One hero assisted.
Sentinel/Scourge will be official killers and the hero who assisted will get, well, assist.
Gold, however, will be split among all players like this:
- Total bounty will be split in two halves.
- One half will be equally shared among all players and other half will go to the hero that assisted.
- If more heroes assisted, it will be split among them.
So, if bounty for heroes head is 500 gold, every hero in team will gain 50 gold and heroes who directly assisted will gain the rest shared among them.
Still, the point is that I don't mind that much that hero who assisted Sentinel/Scourge in killing a hero gains a nice sum of gold, but I personally think it's kinda dumb that it counts as if he actually killed him... when he didn't.
Game is kinda rewarding you for something you didn't deserve.
I find it annoying when I make my combo on an enemy that he runs away with 0.000001HP, but I still accept it since next time I should try to be better and calculate the whole thing better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marn_ View Post
Tinuine said it all.
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:29 PM   #19
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

@Monsterlord:
You overshot the date by a bit :-). It was introduced in 6.65
Quote:
* When there is only 1 Assist to a Sentinel or Scourge kill, the kill is
instead given to that hero. When there are multiple assists to a Sentinel or
Scourge kill, the gold is split amongst those assisters rather than the
entire team
--------

On topic:
While having the sentinel/scourge generously give away the killer title to a lazy assisting hero may be bad from a "logic" point of view, having the creeps "steal" your gold at what turn out to be basically random times is bad for gameplay, and most importantly, is not fun at all.

The only thing I would consider "reverting" in this case would be the score/leaderboard and visuals:give the kill to the creeps, but keep all the gold, killing spree, etc going to the hero the same way as it is now.
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Last edited by ninguem; 04-13-2011 at 09:43 PM.
Old 04-13-2011, 09:50 PM   #20
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninguem View Post
@Monsterlord:
You overshot the date by a bit :-). It was introduced in 6.65


--------

On topic:
While having the sentinel/scourge generously give away the killer title to a lazy assisting hero may be bad from a "logic" point of view, having the creeps "steal" your gold at what turn out to be basically random times is bad for gameplay, and most importantly, is not fun at all.

The only thing I would consider "reverting" in this case would be the score/leaderboard and visuals:give the kill to the creeps, but keep all the gold, killing spree, etc going to the hero the same way as it is now.
I agree only on gold part and even there not totally (it's late now and I will think about it a bit better in the morning).
Spree and kill go to Scourge/Sentinel.
Also, lol, it would be cool if Scourge/Sentinel had official killing sprees.
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Old 04-14-2011, 12:35 AM   #21
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

t-down. system is fine rite now

u do damage to hero, ur most likely the reason that hero died (lured, did most damage, etc.) and scourage/sent should not get kill.
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Old 04-14-2011, 04:40 AM   #22
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Quote:
So, if we want to be fair, if I do most of the damage to a hero, I should get kill even if someone does a kill-steal?
What's this theory ? Even you deal 99,99% enemy's hp but he still alive u NOT get a kill at all and you NEED another to finish him (ks just one of situations) so this system is not wrong, and imo everyone should thank for that fair.
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:21 AM   #23
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Quote:
Originally Posted by God_ii View Post
t-down. system is fine rite now
No it's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God_ii View Post
u do damage to hero, ur most likely the reason that hero died (lured, did most damage, etc.) and scourage/sent should not get kill.
This just complicates things and makes them look dumb.
Improved assist system would be much better than this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhongVu View Post
What's this theory ? Even you deal 99,99% enemy's hp but he still alive u NOT get a kill at all and you NEED another to finish him (ks just one of situations) so this system is not wrong, and imo everyone should thank for that fair.
You didn't make sense on so many levels it hurts. >_>

Will post some alternative solution during the day.
Probably at late afternoon when I'm done with all other stuff I have to do.
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:43 AM   #24
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Default Re: I get killed by creeps and enemy gets kill, wt

Okay you got it all wrong...I run with 10 hp and I know I will get killed by lets say Bloodseeker since he is in area...he ruptured me from afar and I escaped for a second...I am running now with that small hp and he is after me...so I go at enemy tower to die...I denied myself in that way to the Scourge/Sentinels but the kill is still given to Bloodseeker because he was only hero in assissting scourge/sentinels?

No that's not right...if sentinel/scourge gets kill then they get the kill and the hero gains ONLY assist ant that assist must be shown in the counter!!!

About gold, equally split between team and a bit more gold to the one(s) who assist...

Edit: How about giving each hero some kind of skill or just give a command which will count the kill as denial if you die at hand of Sentinel/Scourge in next 2 seconds...
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