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Old 06-14-2011, 03:56 PM   #1
Lithary
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Lightbulb Warlock [Buff]


- Introduction -
Well, there were some threads about this hero and each tried to mess him up, so I decided to give it a shoot also.
This is also sort of present to The][nquisitor (since he likes him so much) for his birthday (Happy birthday, myoit! ), so if I buffed something too much, blame it on him.
Anyway, this is current Warlock.
Also, while this is only buff of the hero, I still am going to suggest three visual changes (Fatal Bonds icon, Upheaval effect and his projectile, which will automatically include his ASU effect) since I don't wish to make a thread especially for them (kinda unnecessary).
For his projectile, I just wish that he somehow gets projectile witch is currently used by Furion and that his ASU effect changes into a green flame (you'll see other two changes below).
And before I start, let me tell you what I aim to achieve with this buff.
Mainly I wish to buff his cooldowns since I think they are his cancer.
All changes will be in pink.
There will be some number playing, but will mostly focus on cooldowns.
Tell me if I overdid with something instead so I can fix it.
Thanks in advance!



- Skills -

Fatal Bonds
Type: Active
Targeting: Unit
Targets: Enemy Units
Hotkey: F
Bonds several enemy units together, causing 20% of the damage dealt to any of them to be felt by the others.
______.________._______.___._______.__________________________.
 ManaCooldownC. RangeAoEDurationEffects
1
120
20
800
600
20
Bonds 2 units together.
2
120
20
800
600
20
Bonds 3 units together.
3
120
20
800
600
20
Bonds 4 units together.
4
120
20
800
600
20
Bonds 5 units together.

-Notes:




• Damage type: HP Removal.
• Damage will not disable abilities or items like Kelen's Dagger which requires player based damage.

- Except highlighted changes, I've also removed word 'partially' from the tooltip since it simply doesn't make any sense when you think about it.
Icon used here came from this thread.


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Last edited by Lithary; 06-29-2011 at 10:41 AM.
Old 06-14-2011, 06:18 PM   #2
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

It's pretty much perfect. Maybe Upheaval's a bit too strong with a 30s cooldown, I'd say it's safer setting it to 40 minimum.
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

I think you went the wrong way with the Shadow Word buff, however. Lowering the damage per instance makes it even more useless later in the game. IMO the damage should be about 12/24/36/48 (pure damage) per second with a 16 second cooldown and 8 second duration. But everything else is really good.

And as Monsterlord said, 30 seconds is too good, Perhaps make it 55/50/45/40 seconds instead.
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:02 PM   #4
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

How about 35 seconds final cooldown for Upheaval as compromise?
About Shadow Word, I'll brainstrom a bit more since whatever I do, I ether make it too weak at some point or too strong at some point, and I don't wish to add % or attribute based damage/heal to it since that doesn't fit him in my opinion.
Anyway, I'll make some changes now, but I'll look into it more when I get some sleep.
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Fatal Bond: Increase bond damage for 20% to 25%.
Shadow Word: You mean it can suck away 400 HP? Although it is a DoT ability, it is even stronger than lvl1 FoD. EITHER reduce it to the current and change damage to pure OR keep these number and change it back to magical damage.
Upheaval: I think it is OK.
Rain of Chaos: Reduce cooldown to 120s.
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Old 06-15-2011, 06:16 AM   #6
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Fatal Bonds - Eh, not sure if needed.
It did get a slight nerf so I can buff other skills more freely.
It's still pretty awesome skills and am not sure if it's needed.
Will see what other PD members will have to say though.

Shadow Word - Purification can suck away 360 HP in AoE in a burst for only 10 more mana, while also healing a single target for 360 HP in a burst, having 3 seconds less cooldown than suggested SW and longer cast rage.
So yeah, I think it's actually fine.

Upheaval - Me to... more or less.

Rain of Chaos - Wouldn't that kinda be too much?
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Old 06-15-2011, 06:36 AM   #7
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

How about shadow word works like this (imba players will recognise this)
The more hp the target has the more damage is dealt, and the less hp an ally has the more the heal is.
100% could be at 50% of a units health (not decreasing when it goes below(when damaging)/above(when healing) 50%)
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:44 AM   #8
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Quote:
How about 35 seconds final cooldown for Upheaval as compromise?
Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure Upheaval was on a 25s cooldown before it's massive nerf, so 35 is still a bit too good. Like I said, 40 would have to be the bare minimum, and even that is pushing it.

Quote:
The more hp the target has the more damage is dealt, and the less hp an ally has the more the heal is.
Then it's just a godly version of Inner Vitality >_>
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:16 AM   #9
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toad of Death View Post
How about shadow word works like this (imba players will recognise this)
The more hp the target has the more damage is dealt, and the less hp an ally has the more the heal is.
100% could be at 50% of a units health (not decreasing when it goes below(when damaging)/above(when healing) 50%)
Eh, not that bad of an idea, but I think that SW should have raw numbers.
Somehow seems fitting for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterlord View Post
Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure Upheaval was on a 25s cooldown before it's massive nerf, so 35 is still a bit too good. Like I said, 40 would have to be the bare minimum, and even that is pushing it.
OK, but I'll increase duration of the slow a bit then.
40 seconds (hell, even 35 seconds) is not short period of time in DotA.
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:39 AM   #10
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Your Fatal Bonds and RoC seems good.
The maximum slow increase to Upheaval seems good to, but not quite sure about that 30% per second on level 4, though reducing it to say 25, still just adds 1 extra second before it reaches max slow.

I like the idea of Shadow Word dealing pure damage as someone said above.

I have a different idea for Upheaval altogether though, but it seem ludicrous, but what the heck. Lol
People feel Upheaval is too situational and it's countered by stunners, but what if current Upheaval gained global cast range?

Another idea I've had, often while channeling Upheaval, you might need to cast Dagon or heal an ally, but doing so, would end Upheaval..
What if interrupting your channeling didn't?
As in, first you channel it to its max slow, but if you decide to leave it, it stays active, but the slow decreases overtime, until it doesn't slow at all, at which point it disappears.
Kind of like, it gains a selection ring, and you can right click it again to resume channeling.
(This would recquire removing the maximum 10 second channel thing though)
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:43 AM   #11
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
Shadow Word - Purification can suck away 360 HP in AoE in a burst for only 10 more mana, while also healing a single target for 360 HP in a burst, having 3 seconds less cooldown than suggested SW and longer cast rage.
So yeah, I think it's actually fine.

Then it can be considered imba.
Morever, Shadow Word is easier to cast on enemy, while Purification require close range to deal damage.
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:10 PM   #12
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FleshTRNDstone View Post
Your Fatal Bonds and RoC seems good.
The maximum slow increase to Upheaval seems good to, but not quite sure about that 30% per second on level 4, though reducing it to say 25, still just adds 1 extra second before it reaches max slow.

I like the idea of Shadow Word dealing pure damage as someone said above.

I have a different idea for Upheaval altogether though, but it seem ludicrous, but what the heck. Lol
People feel Upheaval is too situational and it's countered by stunners, but what if current Upheaval gained global cast range?
LoL no, it would make skill broken as fuck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FleshTRNDstone View Post
Another idea I've had, often while channeling Upheaval, you might need to cast Dagon or heal an ally, but doing so, would end Upheaval..
What if interrupting your channeling didn't?
As in, first you channel it to its max slow, but if you decide to leave it, it stays active, but the slow decreases overtime, until it doesn't slow at all, at which point it disappears.
Kind of like, it gains a selection ring, and you can right click it again to resume channeling.
(This would recquire removing the maximum 10 second channel thing though)
You mean, after you finish channeling, Upheaval would remain for few more seconds?
If so, not needed since affected enemies will remain to be slowed for few seconds after the channeling is over.
Also, it could unnecessary complicate the skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerChaos View Post

Then it can be considered imba.
Morever, Shadow Word is easier to cast on enemy, while Purification require close range to deal damage.
It's imba only on paper if you ask me.
People are afraid of pure damage too much in my opinion.
It's good since nothing can reduce it except invulnerability.
Still, I think it can be balanced and that it's balanced in Warlock's scenario.
Also, Omniknight is a melee hero with a slow aura and two great tank/support abilities.
He, or someone better suited at the moment, will always be in melee range for him to use Purification properly.
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Where the hell is the Cynide and Happiness COMIC! no comic, no opinion

Nah, seriously, We'd like the Shadow Word remake, tho numbers now are not ideal, but as always, theyre disposable and easily replaceable
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:22 PM   #14
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Fuck, I forgot!
Will get one ASAP!

Edit:
Done!
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

You may have overbuffed him, but he needs some changes. T-up.
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Ok, C&H persuaded me. I am gonna say this is nearly flawless (and how often I do that?). Maybe a little bit too strong, because I believe that current WL is in state, when he is nearly as powerful to just come out of darkness. Well, I guess IF could tweak it, if it's gonna be needed. T-UP
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Old 06-15-2011, 04:49 PM   #17
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

shadow word: pure damage??? no thats just...no.

also why the hell are you comparing it with purification????? /dissapoint

others though-

t-up!!!
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Wait, I haven't seen that PURE text there. That's absurd. 400 damage nuke? Are you sure? Go back to magical, please.
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:44 PM   #19
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterlord View Post
Then it's just a godly version of Inner Vitality >_>
Well that would be done with the goal of buffing his early game...so it would actually be worse than inner vitality later on.
Actually yeah when you think about it it seems to really fit with raw numbers, it's just I really like the idea of percentage-based heal that is based of raw heal that is in a way different from other heals in the game atm.
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Why not make Shadow Word AoE around the target?

If targets an enemy, deals damage in an AoE around the enemy.

If target an ally, it heals in an AoE around the ally.

Still weaker than death pulse's spam heal/damage 2fer1 mechanisms IMO but it's more useful now that way. Just nerf it to magic damage. Great synergy with Fatal bonds now and you can actually make use of the heal for more than 1 person at a time, thus making the cooldown (15 secs as of now, I approve ) less inhibiting.
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:41 PM   #21
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Godplayer View Post
shadow word: pure damage??? no thats just...no.

also why the hell are you comparing it with purification????? /dissapoint

others though-

t-up!!!
Well, they are basically both heal/damage spells.
Only Purification is superior in my opinion by far.
I really don't know with which skill should I compare it to.
But then again, I'm a fucktard of a special kind so I'm not surprised if I said something stupid. >_>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
Wait, I haven't seen that PURE text there. That's absurd. 400 damage nuke? Are you sure? Go back to magical, please.
It's not a nuke, it's a DOT skill.
Huge difference.
1000 burst damage >>>>> 1 damage/second for 1000 seconds (this is just a wild example to make it easier to understand what am I trying to say).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toad of Death View Post
Well that would be done with the goal of buffing his early game...so it would actually be worse than inner vitality later on.
Actually yeah when you think about it it seems to really fit with raw numbers, it's just I really like the idea of percentage-based heal that is based of raw heal that is in a way different from other heals in the game atm.
I love skills with % concept in them, but I don't think that this is for him.
Even though your is not that bad idea, it simply isn't fitting since it would make him ether too strong or too weak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomed2die View Post
Why not make Shadow Word AoE around the target?

If targets an enemy, deals damage in an AoE around the enemy.

If target an ally, it heals in an AoE around the ally.

Still weaker than death pulse's spam heal/damage 2fer1 mechanisms IMO but it's more useful now that way. Just nerf it to magic damage. Great synergy with Fatal bonds now and you can actually make use of the heal for more than 1 person at a time, thus making the cooldown (15 secs as of now, I approve ) less inhibiting.
AoE is a good idea.
Maybe make it into an AoE skill (would balance the numbers of course)?

Anyway.
I don't know why are people that afraid of pure damage.
At least on Warlock.
I understand that it would be OP as hell for Lina to have pure damage spells, for example, but I don't understand it for him.
SW is a pretty crappy skill worth having only early game, and even then lacks in one way or another compared to some other skills.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:22 AM   #22
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

^ People afraid of pure damage because it can not be reduced/resisted. It can only be blocked by invulnerable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomed2die View Post
Why not make Shadow Word AoE around the target?

If targets an enemy, deals damage in an AoE around the enemy.

If target an ally, it heals in an AoE around the ally.

Still weaker than death pulse's spam heal/damage 2fer1 mechanisms IMO but it's more useful now that way. Just nerf it to magic damage. Great synergy with Fatal bonds now and you can actually make use of the heal for more than 1 person at a time, thus making the cooldown (15 secs as of now, I approve ) less inhibiting.
This
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:25 AM   #23
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Well, Lithary, skills are not to be compared. WL is ranged with better mana and brutal AoE ulti. On the other hand, Omni is melee with mana issues and highly supportive spells. It's logical that his nuke/heal will be stronger. Of course I understand that 400 burst > 400 DoT, but 400 pure DoT on lvl 7 is something like a Laser in your face over some time. And it can heal, wuhu.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:26 AM   #24
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
Well, Lithary, skills are not to be compared. WL is ranged with better mana and brutal AoE ulti. On the other hand, Omni is melee with mana issues and highly supportive spells. It's logical that his nuke/heal will be stronger. Of course I understand that 400 burst > 400 DoT, but 400 pure DoT on lvl 7 is something like a Laser in your face over some time. And it can heal, wuhu.
i agree with this!
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Old 06-16-2011, 09:57 AM   #25
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Shadow word has to heal/damage not in 8 seconds but in less than 6 seconds.

Otherwise the cooldown of the spell to be dramatically reduced to actually be called a good heal.

I also saw you nerfed fatal bonds.I instantly t-down this.

Then you buffed both duration and initial slow of upheaval.I love it.

As you can see I t-up only upheaval D:
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Old 06-17-2011, 12:24 PM   #26
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
Well, Lithary, skills are not to be compared. WL is ranged with better mana and brutal AoE ulti. On the other hand, Omni is melee with mana issues and highly supportive spells. It's logical that his nuke/heal will be stronger. Of course I understand that 400 burst > 400 DoT, but 400 pure DoT on lvl 7 is something like a Laser in your face over some time. And it can heal, wuhu.
Good reply, but I wouldn't agree with it 100%.
Omniknight doesn't have that big problems and being melee (at least in his case) is not that big of a con since he has Degen Aura.
Also, RoC is pretty damn good skill, but so is GA.
Not to mention that Omniknight has a free team BKB.
Still, Purification is still better skill than suggested SW, so I don't get the problem.
Also, you said not to compare skills and then you compare two totally different skills, with totally different use on two totally different heroes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed A.I. View Post
Shadow word has to heal/damage not in 8 seconds but in less than 6 seconds.

Otherwise the cooldown of the spell to be dramatically reduced to actually be called a good heal.

I also saw you nerfed fatal bonds.I instantly t-down this.

Then you buffed both duration and initial slow of upheaval.I love it.

As you can see I t-up only upheaval D:
What about RoC (you missed that one )?
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Old 06-17-2011, 12:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

how about make the RoC's damage Chaos?
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

I wouldn't mind if the spell had 90 second cooldown to match its superiors (familiars and spirit bear),but the aoe of the impact should be greatly reduced.
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Old 06-17-2011, 05:34 PM   #29
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

That would make it awful >_>
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterlord View Post
That would make it awful >_>
+1

le bump
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:04 PM   #31
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

I like its concept but I think some readjustments are in order.

Strengthen Fatal Bonds and weaken Shadow Word. Shadow Word's 400 pure damage every 15 seconds is very iffy to me. Also, Demnok Lannik, should't be focused as a single target damage dealer. He's an AoE offensive-support guy. Shadow Word IMO should be more spammable but less potent.

90/105/120/135 mana and 8/16/24/32 or 9/18/27/36 Heal/Damage per second.

OR

90/105/120/135 mana and 8 or 9 seconds duration.




Damage wise, don't compare it to Purification. Purification's damage aspect is hard to land and requires coordination/timing to pull off against enemy heroes AND is on a strength hero with much less mana than Warlock. Compare it to Laser.
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Last edited by menage0a0trois; 06-23-2011 at 02:27 PM.
Old 06-29-2011, 10:39 AM   #32
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

Well, I never had any problems with Purification myself (no mana problems no landing it properly problems) and that's why I kinda compared them.
Still, maybe I will water it down to have about same effect, but for longer duration.
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:53 AM   #33
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Default Re: Warlock [Buff]

I see you still haven't rebalanced Shadow Word =/
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