DotA 2 & LoL

[EventH]

"Good artists copy; great artists steal." - Picasso

tl;dr near the end.

One of the most fascinating things about DotA is the history of its ascent from an unknown WC3 map, to spawning not just successors, but an entire genre of DotA clones and spinoffs with more players across the globe than World of Warcraft. In terms of playerbase and international appeal, DotA is truly one of the most successful videogames ever made.

This success has been piggybacked on by games like Heroes of Newerth and League of Legends which promise Dota-style gameplay on modern platforms. The inspiration for these two games borrowed heavily from DotA, to the point where certain items, abilites, and even whole characters were carbon copies of those in DotA (This is, in my experience, more true of HoN than of LoL). Both games have blossomed into their own over time, but they bear unmistakeable marks of their beginning as seeds on the DotA tree.

This heavy borrowing of ideas to improve one's own situation is a very natural human behavior, and I am not criticizing it. In fact, I am suggesting that DotA 2 do the very same thing to HoN and LoL.

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First let us briefly analyze the current state of DotA on WC3; second, let us see how LoL has tried to improve the player experience over DotA for the purpose of suggesting features or improvements to DotA 2, which is, as Icefrog said, the long-term future of DotA. (I am comparing it to LoL rather than HoN because I am not nearly as familiar with HoN.)

DotA on WC3 has generally two things to consider, which are:
A.) Issues regarding the platform.
B.) Issues regarding DotA itself.


Issues regarding DotA's platform

Warcraft 3 was originally released in 2002, and generally, it has aged gracefully. But nine (!) is a big number in video-game years, and WC3 and its counterpart incarnation of Battle.net are at this point not just long in the tooth, but practically cadavers, animated by DotA's massive and enthusiastic community and the occasional pity-patch from Blizzard.

In recent years as DotA became more popular, alternatives to WC3's built in Battle.net sprang up, such as Garena, Dotalicious (more recently), and others. These platforms are used primarily or exclusively to play DotA, which was not the design intent of WC3.

Some of these alternate platforms feature:
1.) Better organization of games and players (skill, matchmaking)
2.) Better social features
3.) Stats tracking
4.) Leaver/Cheating protection (in many different forms)
5.) Free DotA access (via WC3 piracy)

There are two purposes of the DotA platform: First, to grant easy and fast access to DotA itself. Second, to optimize the players game-experience. Each feature fits one of these purposes.

The last one greatly increases the pool of players available, which is more of a side-effect for the alternate platforms, but still very important and will be addressed later.

While generally there are improvements in each platform, these platforms usually require several extra steps to configure. In addition, the improvements vs. Battle.net are often relatively minor, and certain key improvements (e.g., reconnection, cheating protection, matchmaking) are sometimes non-existent. Also, the wealth of platform choices can be confusing to the new player who just wants to play DotA. Generally, there is a terrific fragmentation of the DotA experience, with no single, professional DotA platform to turn to.


Issues regarding DotA itself

1.) DotA is a difficult & frustrating game to learn to play well.

This is probably the biggest problem facing the growth of DotA aside from the imitations of WC3. There are several reasons for this:

A.) Disorganization of items
B.) Large Disparity between new and experienced players
C.) Hero pool is huge, with little guidance for new players
D.) DotA is generally unforgiving of mistakes
E.) Mechanics/stats are arbitrarily complex (1 str = 19hp etc.)

(Each of these will be addressed below.)

2.) A good DotA game requires the absence of leavers or cheaters.
3.) A typical DotA game requires a (relatively) large time investment. (typically 45-50+ mins counting game set-up etc.)
4.) A good DotA game requires that all players be of comparable skill

These then are generally the issues which face DotA currently; they are not all necessarily problems (though some are) but things that should at least be taken into consideration for DotA 2.


Now let us look at the direction LoL has taken toward these issues, both in its platform and in the gameplay. I am not suggesting these are necessarily the proper measures.


The League of Legends platform:

As we said earlier, the platform's purpose is to grant access to the game and optimize the player's game experience. Let's see how LoL manages to do this.

1.) Game & Player organization

In LoL it is very easy and fast to get into a game: just hit the big play button on the home screen and select whether you'd like to invite teammates or not, and the game will automatically match you within 20 seconds or so. You may also create custom games if you want special rules. The matchmaking system will also attempt to match you with teammates of a comparable level automatically, though its judgment isn't always the best.

Relevance for DotA 2: DotA in the current form is cumbersome and time consuming to set up a game for online play, so having fast, simple access to games would be a big step forward for the player. In addition, player skill often varies wildly at random in public DotA games which can be intensely frustrating for all players involved. Getting a well-balanced pub game is more the exception than the rule in DotA currently. Thus, some sort of matchmaking system ought to be part of DotA 2.

2.) Social Experience

LoL has a similar social configuration to StarCraft 2, including buddy list, chat rooms etc. However you cannot (at the moment) create 'clans' or browse a lists of other players at random. This focuses the social experience around the player and his friends, and draws attention away from the community, and as a result, the player feels less connected to the community as a whole.

LoL games typically take one of two paths: Random matchmaking where you don't know anyone else in the game, or queuing with friends against random opponents. There is no middle ground as for example in Garena if you play in the same room often, or if you play on a lower population platform you will start recognizing peoples names and get to know the other players and their playstyles. In LoL there is very little to none of this; it is just you and your friends versus a sea of random players, who may as well be named Bot 1 - Bot 5. In my experience, this can make the game feel somewhat alienating.

Relevance for DotA 2: Of course DotA 2 will have some sort of buddy system and game invites, but will there be a sense of a DotA community within the game, or will the game be mostly user-centric like LoL? On the one hand I feel that the IRC style chat rooms of Garena are hideous anachronisms and have no place in DotA 2, and most pub games on any client are played with players that might be as good as random anyway. However I know that I do enjoy running into the same players, who aren't necessarily on my friends list from time to time. Perhaps DotA 2 could add a 'occasionally match me with/against this person in the future' feature to the matchmaking system. This way, you could still have random, automatically balanced games, but end up playing with some of the same people again without having to add them to your friends list. Alternately, there could be an option for creating large group which you could queue with, so for example there could be a PlayDota group, and you could choose to queue with/against random people in the group, in addition to playing with/against complete strangers.

3.) Stats Tracking

This is one place where LoL fails pretty significantly in my opinion. It does keep running totals of you takedowns (kills + assists + towers), creep kills and wins, but almost all other stats are invisible outside the most recent 10 games. DotA 2 absolutely must have persistent, detailed stats tracking, maybe not completely publicly visible, but it needs to be there.

4.) Leaver/Cheating/Abuse protection

LoL has a fairly decent reporting system, where at the end of each game you may report any other player for an abuse, whether the problem is Language, Attitude, Leaving/AFK, etc. Leaving is automatically punished in addition, and goes on the players permanent record. In addition, players who queue and then leave matchmaking are temporarily (~5 minutes for first offense) banned from the matchmaker. Riot has also decided to have groups of randomly-selected experienced players judge the abuse-reports in 'tribunals' instead of hiring an army of mods chase down what must be thousands of reports a day.

I have not seen a single case of cheating in LoL, and I'm not even sure that its possible given that the game is hosted on Riot's servers. In addition, this makes the game more stable because there is no single player which the game depends on. It seems this is the only way to go for DotA 2.

5.) Free Access

Perhaps the greatest contribution to DotA's popularity is (ironically) the piracy of Warcraft 3. It would be foolish to pass up a free-to-play model for DotA 2, because while some of the diehard fans will plunk down whatever it costs for the full product, the reality is that the DotA community is much bigger and less inclined to spend large sums of money than your typical gaming demographic. Just check out the # of downloads WC3 has on your favorite torrent site.

...In the end you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. If a players first experience of DotA 2 is having to crack open their wallet for $50, the 'good news' about DotA 2 won't spread anywhere near as easily as if that first experience were simply firing up the game. Often too, players will be feel more inclined to pay money for skins/premium accounts/etc. if they have received something else (core gameplay) for free, like in the recent Penny Arcade comic.

There is a tremendous amount of potential for DotA 2 to be a worldwide gaming phenomenon which presents some truly unique opportunities. It would be a shame to waste it by trying to pigeonhole it into a traditional $50 retail strategy.


League of Legends Gameplay

There are several interesting things Riot has done which attempt to improve on the core DotA-style gameplay.

Accessibility / Gameplay Clarity

LoL has done away with or modified several practices which are part of DotA in an effort to streamline gameplay. Here are some examples:

Item Organization
Like in HoN, items are sold at a single shop, are organized according to the role the item fills (Attack, Defense, Consumables etc.), and have clearly displayed upgrade trees. Items in LoL also tend not to have active abilities, in contrast to DotA. In addition, a full set of recommended items tailored to your hero is displayed in the shop.

Hero Organization
Each hero has its own information page within LoL which contains information about each ability (excluding each heroes passive for some reason), lore, and relative strength as a caster or damage dealer and difficulty of play. This information sheet also contains some basic tactical suggestions for playing as the hero, or fighting against them. The game also recommends some of the simpler heroes for new players.

Player Skill Disparity
This is solved mainly through the matchmaking system which places players with more or less equal skill together. However, there are a few other changes which lessen the the chasm between new and experienced players.

For example, denying creeps/towers has been removed from the game, and creeps give significantly less gold in LoL than DotA. (i.e., Dota creep = approx. 1/5 of a hero kill, LoL creep = approx. 1/10 of a hero kill) Hero kills typically grant more gold, and the gold gained from killing a hero which is on a spree is also increased significantly. Further, most individual items in LoL are cheaper (1600 or less) than in DotA, allowing for easier build-up. Completed items are also cheaper.

Arbitrary Mechanics
The Str/Agi/Int stat system in DotA is one of the several mechanics borrowed from WC3. It is also functions in a very arbitrary, and therefore confusing fashion. This is presumably why LoL has ditched this stat system altogether to focus on more the fundamental values attached to each character, hp, damage, regen, mana etc. With the exception of ability power, each of these mechanics is present in DotA already, however they are obscured by the WC3 stat system.

So for example, Agility increases damage for agility heroes only, adds 1% attack speed per agility point, and increases armor by 1 for every 7 points. So, the 'Agility' stat is actually an arbitrary and more complex way of modifying damage, armor and attack speed, and does not bring anything new to the table other than obfuscation of these fundamental stats.

A question the designers of DotA 2 might keep in mind is whether it is good game design to have gameplay mechanics whose sole purpose is to complicate other mechanics in this way. If not, I'd say LoL did the right thing by throwing out the WC3 Agi/Str/Int system.

A few other mechanics have been done away with, for example the orb effects (though Unique effects on an item do not stack if you get another of the same item), and most active skills on items in general. This focuses the gameplay away from items and their activatables (no purge, lightning shield, windwalk, creep domination, soul burn, hexing, image creation, magic immunity, dagon, etc.) and toward the heroes' own abilites. I would imagine this also makes the game significantly easier to balance.

Mistake Forgiveness

DotA is generally an unforgiving game in several ways. To play competently, a hero generally requires certain items, many heroes will strong skills (enigma's ult) require precise positioning and timing, which usually requires a few special items (kelen's dagger + bkb) and the use of another couple skills (blink + avatar). And if you miss, or silencer is on the enemy team, have fun waiting 3mins for it to cooldown. This is a strong example, but illustrates generally the difficulty of executing the important abilities in DotA, a single slip up anywhere in this chain often completely ruins the entire execution.

DotA actively punishes you for dying (gold removal) in addition to preventing you from being in the lane, which itself denies gold and xp. Creep/tower denying also plays an important part in the game, where one team/player punishes the other by killing their own unit, denying the opponent xp and gold. In sort, mechanics which punish the player are fairly common and strong in DotA.

LoL on the other hand has removed most active abilites on items, which streamlines combo execution. It also does not remove gold from the player upon death, and does not allow the player to deny creeps or towers.

Of course many people in the DotA community will look at these changes as evidence that LoL is a dumbed-down, casual version of DotA. However, one must look at this in terms of player experience; are these fun mechanics? Do they add depth? Do they make the game more interesting to play and watch? In general, what type of gameplay is more enjoyable: One which actively punishes the player for making mistakes, or one which simply rewards the player for playing properly? I would suggest the latter.

Time Investment
LoL features a generally quickened game pace compared with DotA, with most games lasting somewhere between 30-45 mins.

This is for a few reasons.
1. Cheaper items, as mentioned above.
2. Built-in town-portal skill for every hero means less running around.
3. Combat flow differences:
Because heroes give increased bounty, creep's bounty is reduced, and dying doesn't cost gold, there is a greatly increased incentive to gank. In addition, the damage values in LoL for individual hits (physical and magic) are generally slightly higher than in DotA, while hp pools remain similar, which makes combat faster, and feel more 'bursty'. This ensures that heroes are killing and being killed very often for high bounty, so the game is decided faster. This has big implications not only for the feel of the gameplay, but also for the quality of the game as a spectator event.


Generally, we have seen Icefrog attempt to quicken the speed of DotA in recent years, by increasing creep gold, gold per tick, and adding assist gold. However there are some hard questions which need to be asked about the fundamental DotA gameplay:
1. Is it as fun to play as it could be?
2. Is it as fun to watch as it could be?
3. How can it be made better?
The answers to these questions will affect the longevity of DotA 2 immensely, both as a casual and professional game.



tl;dr and summary: I would suggest that LoL has taken steps in the right direction for the DotA genre, and that DotA 2 could benefit by implementing some of these changes in one form or another. In addition, LoL has made certain mistakes which I believe DotA 2 would benefit by avoiding.

I would love to hear your thoughts, especially if you play LoL or other DotA-style games.

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NB: This is not a complete list of problems or solutions which face DotA and the DotA genre, but it is an indication (as I see it) of the direction of changes which Riot has implemented in their version of DotA-style gameplay.

[TDN.XVI]

lol looks like a cartoon. dota looks like sexmachine. that's the difference.

[BooBoox3]

I'm sure Valve will please us with DotA2 especially when IF is the one heading the development.

[Glac1al]

Originally Posted by TDN.XVI

lol looks like a cartoon. dota looks like sexmachine. that's the difference.

So you play games with good graphics over all the others? I agree DotA 2 will be awesome, but if my noisy computer will heat up for some weird reason fast(probably cause of 4 cores, but that's off-topic), I'd rather play "8bit" version, just to enjoy the game, not graphics .

[wd.Ripper]

Holy fuck. I think I might actually read this tomorrow. The Picasso quote got me intrigued.

[BooBoox3]

Originally Posted by Glac1al

So you play games with good graphics over all the others? I agree DotA 2 will be awesome, but if my noisy computer will heat up for some weird reason fast(probably cause of 4 cores, but that's off-topic), I'd rather play "8bit" version, just to enjoy the game, not graphics .

Uhmm although I love dota and wc3's gameplay.. I don't think I can stomach playing something like this...

[NoH8]

If DotA 2 "Steals" anything from LoL, Then why is it any different from the way they stole the idea of DotA. DotA 2 should be unique in its own way.

[Varuka]

Almost everything you wrote is already confirmed in Dota2 with the exception of "Mistake Forgiveness," "Arbitrary Mechanics," and "Free.".. and technically, what you called "Time Investment".. but my DotA games are all 30-45 minutes long, so I don't understand how that's any different from LoL. (Heck, my DotA games are 15-35 minutes long, with ~50 minutes being the 1 in 10 games exception...)

Why write so much when Dota2.com has it coming from IceFrog's mouth?

[Glac1al]

Originally Posted by TimeLocked

Uhmm although I love dota and wc3's gameplay.. I don't think I can stomach playing something like this...

That was my idea of "low graphics", but I'd rather play version with less graphic details just to ensure smooth gameplay.

[moon31f]

I played them all, and as a vet (or diehard) dota player i prefer the former game simply because it is the one that requires most of the players.

I don't think it's wrong to copy either but considering the limitations of the wc3 engine and the amount of improvements HoN brought to the table you can consider it a total rip off... Most if not all game developer companies could come up with much better ideas to improve dota.

LoL is just that more casual and it's not deep or fitting enough for international competition, which is a game true fuel to keep being played trough the years.

___________

More thoughts:

I remember when HoN was in its beta stage... Icey had just modified the boots system and a couple more mechanics. I think it was a bit of a decoy move.

On that matter you have to consider that every item implemented, heroes implemented in the pool launchs a CASCADE of new interactions which have to be balanced and thought out. You can analyze a big changelog for hours looking for hints as why this or that was tweaked (icey himself had said that there was no change in the game for the sake of "change", the game just wouldn't improve that way). Big companies have problems tweaking 10 types of different units, check age of empires for that matter. That's why i admire and look forward to more games from icey.

Because of that and more i think S2 games are complete amateurs. Just check their community, it is a complete mess at the moment.

LoL is more ambitious and you can't really compare it to dota aside from the premise. It really works and is fun. From time to time when playing it i get frustrated of being forced to play MY BEST in every game or get a huge drop in the ELO rating. There is not much activity aside from the matchmaking system.

It is also easier to manipulate your rating given that the game is more about straight out combat than building a strategy for your carry to get fed up. You can make more of a difference in lower level games by yourself.

[King Murdoc]

I played LoL, and trust me, DotA is OK. All the complaints about player punishment vanish as a matchmaker appears, while LoL....
LoL has NO BALANCE WHATSOEVER. Certain heroes just dominate, such as one mage hero that has: 1. A low cooldown nuke dealing some damage +4% of your MAX mana at long range(remember, LoL manapools are way bigger.) 2. A three second stun that deals some damage +8% mana at long range, 3. A Chain Lightning that can hit the same target multiple times and reduces magic resist, and 4. Spell that gives all others +50% AoE Damage and perma increases his pool. Compared to a pusher who has 1. Summons a turret that deals minor damage to everything, 2. fires three moderate damage rockets that hit random(including creeps) targets, 3. an aoe slow that has about 400 velocity, and 4. a heal for his turrets that gives them a slow attack.
No balance. At all.

[MeTaL GuArD]

Originally Posted by Saito

I played LoL, and trust me, DotA is OK. All the complaints about player punishment vanish as a matchmaker appears, while LoL....
LoL has NO BALANCE WHATSOEVER. Certain heroes just dominate, such as one mage hero that has: 1. A low cooldown nuke dealing some damage +4% of your MAX mana at long range(remember, LoL manapools are way bigger.) 2. A three second stun that deals some damage +8% mana at long range, 3. A Chain Lightning that can hit the same target multiple times and reduces magic resist, and 4. Spell that gives all others +50% AoE Damage and perma increases his pool. Compared to a pusher who has 1. Summons a turret that deals minor damage to everything, 2. fires three moderate damage rockets that hit random(including creeps) targets, 3. an aoe slow that has about 400 velocity, and 4. a heal for his turrets that gives them a slow attack.
No balance. At all.

You forgot to mention that the former is squishy as shit and if caught out of position dies in seconds without even doing much damage. Especially true vs heroes with built-in blink and silence that can just jump in and fuck him up before anyone reacts. Besides, the mana percentages add up late in the game, and before that the hero needs some help from other players to kill anyone if he's not facing a total squish that never buys any resistance items at all.
LoL is not totally broken like you suggest.

[Pandamonium]

EventH, this is one of the best threads in Dota Chat I have seen in years.

Agreed, both HoN and LoL have done improvements to the Dota genre which should not be overlooked by Icefrog.

If DotA 2 gets the best things from these games and mixes it up with Icefrog's ingenuity and passion, Dota 2 will probably become one of the biggest games in eSports.

It even has a chance to overtake Starcraft 2.

[Mercy]

Originally Posted by EventH

"Good artists copy; great artists steal." - Picasso

tl;dr near the end.

...

LoL on the other hand has removed most active abilites on items, which streamlines combo execution. It also does not remove gold from the player upon death, and does not allow the player to deny creeps or towers.

Of course many people in the DotA community will look at these changes as evidence that LoL is a dumbed-down, casual version of DotA. However, one must look at this in terms of player experience; are these a fun mechanics? Do they add depth? Do they make the game more interesting to play and watch? In general, what type of gameplay is more enjoyable: One which actively punishes the player for making mistakes, or one which simply rewards the player for playing properly? I would suggest the latter.

Time Investment
LoL features a generally quickened game pace compared with DotA, with most games lasting somewhere between 30-45 mins.

This is for a few reasons.
1. Cheaper items, as mentioned above.
2. Built-in town-portal skill for every hero means less running around.
3. Combat flow differences:
Because heroes give increased bounty, creep's bounty is reduced, and dying doesn't cost gold, there is a greatly increased incentive to gank. In addition, the damage values in LoL for individual hits (physical and magic) are generally slightly higher than in DotA, while hp pools remain similar, which makes combat faster, and feel more 'bursty'. This ensures that heroes are killing and being killed very often for high bounty, so the game is decided faster. This has big implications not only for the feel of the gameplay, but also for the quality of the game as a spectator event.

...

I'm sorry but as someone who has played around 500 games of LoL and a ton of DotA I have to disagree with everything here.

I see League of Legends as a stagnant game where players simply stand around leeching exp and money (till they get big enough items to actually be able to push and gank effectively), due to the fact that BOTH ganking and farming are less important/viable in LoL. Here's why especially ganking has been made way harder:

Towers absolutely destroy heroes/champions early/midgame with their ridiculous damage, to some extent shutting down the option of tower diving.

Couple that with the fact that there's no way to stop your lane from pushing due to no deny mechanic nor creep pulling, so the enemies are guaranteed to be able to tower hug against tough lanes.

3. Also, I'm blown away that your opinion of LoL is that it's more "bursty". Not much I can say here, in my opinion physical/magical damage output of heroes is simply not any higher in LoL than in DotA. In LoL an average nuke in fact deals less damage than 300 which is the benchmark for Dota-nukes and the heroes definitely do not have any more nukes in League. The HP pools in LoL are bigger than in DotA as far as I know. Average casters have over 1k hp in LoL in midgame. In DotA it's way less. The addition of Ability Power makes up for the higher HP pools in lategame, but in early/mid game the game is in fact slower-paced and nukes are less effective.

4. No runes, also the addition of brushes to lanes is absolutely huge as it most of the time ends up giving sight advantage to the ones being ganked.

The result is that ganking is much more difficult in LoL than what it is in DotA. There's a reason why roaming the way it is in DotA does not exist in LoL. When farming is also downright stupid with the -easy mode mechanics of LoL, I really feel powerless in that game and it feels like I cannot really make much of an impact as to how the game goes. I feel there's no way to dominate your opponents even if you outskill/outplay them by far.

Perhaps games last longer in DotA, however that is not what I have experienced. If that is true, then I would say it is because of the more carry-centric play in DotA, where pushing to enemy base tends to happen once the carry finishes his core, not earlier. Recall does not fasten the gameplay any more than TP scrolls do, and while it is true that items are cheaper in League, optimal farm in DotA gives multiple times more money than what it does in LoL.

To me, a high risk/reward game is where it's at. I don't see that it's possible to create a PvP game which rewards good play but doesn't punish for bad, since everything you have going on in the game for you is relative to what the enemy has. Being rewarded essentially means that you are getting an advantage over the enemy, which is in other words also punishing the opposition. The other option is to have a game where fucking up is not that bad but playing well is not that rewarding either. Unfortunately that is how I see League of Legends.

I'm sure my post seems super biased (and maybe it is) cause of all the negativity towards League of Legends, but this is honestly how I feel after all those hours spent playing that game. I don't really see any improvements made by Riot to this genre. Summoner spells and Runepages are an interesting addition and were worth a try, but they are simply not something I'd like to see. I'm sure DotA 2 will have a great platform by the way, with community very well integrated to it, coupled with thought-out leaver protection and so on. Wouldn't be worried about those things at all.

[raidragon]

The OP is a LoL player that get owned in all of his dota game.....not punishing gameplay.....yeah right...now go back to your LoL forum and copy/paste this essay...I bet everyone will say " so true"....

[Pariah]

as op said at end: fights in LoL look more 'bursty'... its more like anyone who can press 4 keys gets a rampage easily at LoL, whereas in Dota you need right items, a hero, that you are capable of playing, a bit of luck and most of all SKILL. (maybe a good team but not necessary)

[Mumbo-Jumbo]

Get the fuck off, nobody wants LoL elements in wc3, i dont want even have parts of the plattform in dotA2.
If i need to make 8 reports and have to deliver 10 replays to kick a guy named "ihatejews1488+iwillleaveafter3min" out of my game, i will stay at dotA1. let the players host their games, include a vaclike anticheat into the game.
if i get a shop that would me only slightly remember to the lol shop, were i had to click over more than 9000 itembuild suggestions before i can pick my items free, i would stay at dota1.
if i play the first 10 minutes absolutely perfect, i dont want to be punshed up by the guys who played the first 10 mins while beeing afk. DotA doesnt forgive mistakes and this is good - saying that dotA punishes bad gaming is not true, bad playing just wont get you a reward - so someone who played bad at start will be in need to play better later on then i do to get his chance :P.
if i play dotA, i dont want to have any stattracking. stats doesnt say much about the player in a teamgame, and it is fine that the skill spreads when you play public.
if i play dotA, i have a spare time of arround one hour. Games under 45 mins are boring.

[Khgint]

Well-thought out, but the fact is that most of the things you've talked about have already been confirmed in Dota2.

All the issues involving engine or platform will be solved or improved dramatically by valve, and although i can't say much about LoL gameplay, it appears that the community doesn't like their style very much.

Pricewise, i hope Dota2 will cost. I'd much rather splash $50 for a permanent copy than pay $5 a month or whatever. Premium accounts and skins might make a few dollars, but people will be getting Dota2 mostly for the gameplay, which makes it the part which should cost the most.

[wesai]

I have played a lot of LoL games and I can say, it's everything but "fun".

All these actives from items are things that makes DotA fun and interesting. It adds so much depth to the gameplay and open so different ways to play a hero itself. Get Mirana for example, she is a fun hero and have so much potential in the game. With different item sets she can be a ganker; a support; a nuker or a semi-carry. Now put Mirana on games like LoL where it's hard to find active abilities on items. It totally kills her flexibility and forces her on a single role. It's like you don't need to constantly scout your enemies and see what items they are going to build up because they will get nothing by only more overpower.

Also another thing I don't like on LoL: You can't control other units besides your hero. Multiple-units offer a dynamic play-style: They offer visibility, pushing potential, blocking ways potential, tanking capabilities and many more. It's not like you can just click on your unit and make it go to point X while you select your other unit to go to point Y and set a trap or something because you simply can't lose your hero selection (might be handy for new players but it's sure annoying to others). <--- Imo this is another solid reason why LoL is not so charming to DotA community.

Should I continue? No because I'm sleepy. But it sums it all, LoL is not a bad game. They tried to improved the gameplay for new players which is a good thing. However, they didn't manage to do that great. Also LoL is so much different than DotA it's like comparing Counter-Striker and Call of Duty, they should not be compared. :S

[StraY_WolF]

"dont fix what isnt broken"= A dota player wants to play DotA not LoL.
Dont change the game mechanic just because its dota 2, Change it to improve the game. "change for the sake of change" is wrong!

EDIT: fuck you slow internet!!!!!