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Old 09-01-2011, 07:44 PM   #1
Mazoku
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Default Pugna items!


So, i usualy play pugna with the following item build:

Core: SR+Bracer+Headress+Bots+gg branch+TP

After this items pugna becomes a threat, capable of pushing towers or farm like a mad man. SR helps a lot in terms of leaving you mana pool at high levels and you hardly feel the degen.
The most common extension for this item build is:

Headress+gg branch---> Meka
boots---> BOT
Point boster somewhere in between.
Bracer--> Jango

After i finish those items i go for EUL (wich provides me with infinite amount of mana and an extre disable).

Once eul is finished, agha is the only way to go as it improves your ult and hp pool by so much...

Item build cost: 14.531

With say 2 kills, 0 death, 6 towers down this can be completed by the ~35 min mark.
Level 20 stats:
1737 HP
2048 MP
457 MS / 500 ms with jango activated.

I like this item build, i think it is not so ambicious.

Yet i have a couple of problems:

1) I find it hard to fit SR on my item build, specialy as the active hurts quite a bit when you got something like 800 HP early on. Bottle provides nowhere near the amount of mana SR provides, so i dont consider it a viable sustitute.

Would you guys think it would be better if i fit a vit boster (for a laaate HOT) instead of SR and i went for a rushed EUL?

2) I cant realy decide what item should i place in the 6 item slot. Many times i find myself completing this item build and the game is still draging on.
The items i find worth of buying are:
HOT, Guinso (mana not realy needed), Linkens, Bloodstone.
Wich one do you think would fit better?
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: Pugna items!

SR is really bad

Sobi mask items like Urn are very effective on him. I normally just run around with spare Sobi masks if I need significantly more regen.

Furthermore your build is poor because you have a very versatile hero who is strong because he farms fast and can adjust to any particular game. By ramming one build down his thought you neuter one of the heroes most important attributes.


Question 1:

I just use extra sobi masks as a source of mana regen since you can normally cover HP regen between fights with life drain if you are healthy on mana regen.

I make urn every game I play the hero because it helps him bulk up and gives mana regen. Additionally it allows for health regen if the game has a lot of action and the gold saved on regen builds up very quickly.


Question 2:

You should let the game dictate your item build instead of going for a standard set of 6 items.
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: Pugna items!

1. dont get soul ring on pugna. its fucking retarded.
2. Rush aghanims
3. After that, support or disable items (meka, euls, guinsoo, etc).

simple as that.
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
SR is really bad

Sobi mask items like Urn are very effective on him. I normally just run around with spare Sobi masks if I need significantly more regen.
I will give urn a try and get a Void stone (to get eul later on), seems to fit him perfectly. Those 115 HP urn provides are extremely valuable.

And what about the 6 item?

Any experience with BKB/HOT on a late game pugna?
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:54 PM   #5
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Generally I rush aghanims and get lothars treads and if I can then sheepstick. I never worry about farm on him and mana early game I always go bottle. SR is kak coz of squishiness,
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazoku View Post
I will give urn a try and get a Void stone (to get eul later on), seems to fit him perfectly. Those 115 HP urn provides are extremely valuable.

And what about the 6 item?

Any experience with BKB/HOT on a late game pugna?
I've used most items on him in long games. It just comes down to what you need to cover your weaknesses or capitalize on the opponents weaknesses.

I've done 3 sobi's in lane and ended up selling one of them because I had to keep some stupid brood-mother down. For the dominance they can give you'd it's well worth a 160g investment if you need more mana.
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Old 09-01-2011, 08:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Used urn with some degree of succes. Not as much mana than with SR but the increase in survibability was noticiable.

Guess ill get 6 slot depending on what the game requires.
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: Pugna items!

I tend to get early BKB most of the time
Smth like PT Urn Wand BKB
Meka, Eul, Sheep, Janggo, Aghs, Basi, Soulbooster/Bloodstone, Pipe, Necro, Skadi, Shiva, Manta, Dagon, EB, Force. Those are all other items you should consider as well.
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Treads or Arcane -> Meka Or Urn. If i was going urn i might get a hood or an earlier aghanisms. quick pipe is also nice but a quick sheep is cooler :s
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:56 AM   #10
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BKB? Bitch please, it's all about 13 min Dagon with Decrepti-Blast. It's what we pubbers do.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:04 AM   #11
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Why the BoT? There's no need imho. You will just steal farm from carries...better with treads with the HP and 2 TP scrolls.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:05 AM   #12
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Pugna items! da Dagon! Decrepify, Netherblast, ZAP! Dagon! DEAD.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:05 AM   #13
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLotus018 View Post
Why the BoT? There's no need imho. You will just steal farm from carries...better with treads with the HP and 2 TP scrolls.
Shiiit
Carry stealing farm from carries
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:08 AM   #14
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Default Re: Pugna items!

So I hear Pugna is some kind of carry. Hmmmmmmmmm
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:11 AM   #15
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Why the BoT? There's no need imho. You will just steal farm from carries...better with treads with the HP and 2 TP scrolls.
You gain a nice amount of mobility and you gain one item slot (no need for tps). With 1 jango charge you get to 500 ms, wich makes it easier to run arround through a team fight.

Pugna has no problems farming BOT up, and i think it is the best extension on him unless you decide to go all agresive from the start.

----------

About "stealing farm from the carries" well, if all 3 lanes+jungle (pugna can jungle quite efectively with some gear on him) are ocupied and pugna has nowhere to farm then your team is doing something wrong.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:17 AM   #16
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
So I hear Pugna is some kind of carry. Hmmmmmmmmm
Go troll yourself away moron
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:44 AM   #17
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pondrac View Post
Go troll yourself away moron
You wish I was the moron instead of you.
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:10 AM   #18
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Default Re: Pugna items!

BOT is one of the most effective items if you are trying to carry a pub because it lets you get to the farm before the morons on your team.

Unfortunately when morons employ this concept the reverse happens and you need to monetize the jungle.
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:53 AM   #19
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Pugna can carry his team and can get great use of and has ease farming big items. Don't worry about doing so. Funny thing to note is that he actually hits like a truck because of his huge int gain. Don't forget the value of his right-click in between spell-casts at all stages.
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:53 AM   #20
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Default Re: Pugna items!

I just get bottle then treads. rush guinsoo if I am not having a hard time farming and then get heart. after that I get aghs. the rest is just luxury
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:28 AM   #21
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Default Re: Pugna items!

If I'm solid mid, I always get a bottle. Pugna is so flexible. Bottle wand treads jango/mek or both when I mid. Then i get bigger items. Hex force eul scepter all works for me. If I'm sidelane, I like to get some mana regen. Usually I get an urn, maybe rob too. Depends on the game. I almost always get treads. I don't like early bots. Usually get them late game only.

I occasionally go battle pugna for fun though. Of course I play pubs. Get treads hotd radiance etc
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:44 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pondrac View Post
Carry stealing farm from carries
ROFLCOPTER
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:44 AM   #23
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DucK- View Post
If I'm solid mid, I always get a bottle. Pugna is so flexible. Bottle wand treads jango/mek or both when I mid. Then i get bigger items. Hex force eul scepter all works for me. If I'm sidelane, I like to get some mana regen. Usually I get an urn, maybe rob too. Depends on the game. I almost always get treads. I don't like early bots. Usually get them late game only.

I occasionally go battle pugna for fun though. Of course I play pubs. Get treads hotd radiance etc
Battle Pugna = Deso/Mjoll
Lol at guys trying to counter autoattacking hero with ghost scepter and decrep their autoattacker. Pure win
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:15 AM   #24
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Default Re: Pugna items!

meka first priority.. dont make bot i think.. then rush for scepter.. after which u get hex eul etc
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:31 AM   #25
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
BOT is one of the most effective items if you are trying to carry a pub because it lets you get to the farm before the morons on your team.

Unfortunately when morons employ this concept the reverse happens and you need to monetize the jungle.
I didnt quite get this. Care to explain?
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:35 AM   #26
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Default Re: Pugna items!

IMO A.Scepter is a must. Rush it ASAP and you'll be big threat to your opponent.
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:41 AM   #27
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Default Re: Pugna items!

str treads + bottle/basi/urn/other cheap shit

euls + blink

scepter + bkb

prepare to ball out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazoku View Post
I didnt quite get this. Care to explain?
he means that you should hog farm. and if other pubbers employ this tactic, you are stuck with the jungle.
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:47 AM   #28
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazoku View Post
I didnt quite get this. Care to explain?
You go Travs so you can monopolize your team's farm. The retards will invariably show up to auto-attack your lane, but then you can tp out and keep farming. If retards build Travs, you have to monopolize the woods farm.
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:53 AM   #29
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Last game I went bracer, boots(later BoTs), aghanims, void stone(later linkens) and ghost scepter (many physical dps rightclickers in the opposite team).
That was a lot of fun.
But for a serious ulti build you should get BKB I guess.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by badmafa View Post
You go Travs so you can monopolize your team's farm. The retards will invariably show up to auto-attack your lane, but then you can tp out and keep farming. If retards build Travs, you have to monopolize the woods farm.
More or less this.

You see your idot ally running to a wave half the map away. TP in to wipe it with AOE then walk into the neuts as they proceed to push the lane to the enemy base.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:30 PM   #31
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by darewin View Post
I just get bottle then treads. rush guinsoo if I am not having a hard time farming and then get heart. after that I get aghs. the rest is just luxury
pretty much this, and plus basi/urn early.
so BKB is worth it on him?
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:33 PM   #32
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RottingWitness View Post
pretty much this, and plus basi/urn early.
so BKB is worth it on him?
BKB? Depending on the game, but most of the time it's exceptional
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:55 PM   #33
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Default Re: Pugna items!

because i never saw BKB pugna :/
gonna try it later
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:01 PM   #34
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Default Re: Pugna items!

More souls for the master - DotA Guides

Allow me to copy paste:



Magic wand, simply because you are facing casters and can be a life saver in any serious game. The bracer to upgrade your low hp which could also lead to jango if nobody else on the team is getting one. It's also a nice item to get if you struggeling getting farm for guinsoo or linkens. Simply get this first and finish your core after. A bottle is gonna be very usefull, you are the mid hero, rune control is vital. Its needed to gank, needed to prevent ganks and provides you with unlimited mana which you need to bring down that tower. A basi ring is simply needed in any team, great item. Urn provides some hp and mana regen, both you can use.


This is your best bet. You need hp so you can survive team battles, you are a fragile hero and to upgrade your hp. It's that simple.


I have to say I have little experience using arcane boots, i guess it could be an option if your team needs one. It could be usefull in a pushing strategy. However this does not give you any hp which i still value over a huge mana pool. Mana can be provided in other ways.


Pugna does have a nice ms and with this it will be pretty high, it will improve your positioning and your last hits early on. However you are going to miss the hp again, and later on most of your farm will come from nether blast anyway.


Very expensive, very usefull. If you can get, get it. It's gonna be usefull in a pushing strategy this way you have more map control. Either way the tp is vital for pugna since you shouldn't miss a single team fight, pushing strategy or not.



Yes, i have listed 2 expensive items as the core items for pugna. This does not mean you have to get both of them. I usually get linkens as the first item, simlpy because it gives your more survivability. You get hp and mana regen, some stats and prevents single target disables, combined with a mid and late game ulti this drastically improves your chances of surving team battles. Guinsoo simply because you are a solo int hero, you need to be responsible for disabling the enemies carry. It should not be a problem to get these items, since you are playing on a solo lane and pushing towers, forcing team fights, these are you strenghts and all of them generate gold.



The reason I didn't put agha as a core item is simply because its very situational wether or not your ulti is gonna be usefull, it all depends on the enemies line-up. Never the less its drastically improves your ulti, but i would never get this as a first item, only after linkens or guinsoo. The strenght of your upgraded ultimate is not only the heal / damage but also the 0 second cooldown, and to benefit from that you are gonna need a lot of mana. Bkb for the obvious reasons, pugna is picked to counter a caster team, therefore bkb is probably a good option. Dagger because pugna's positioning is very important especially when fighting a caster team. Its also very usefull in combination with agha and linkens. This way you can seriously clean up after a team fight took place.



Pipe, Force Staff and Shivas are the most used items from the options i gave. However all of these items with perhaps the exception of necro book have 1 thing in common. Which is surivivability, you need this in late game. It is up to you to decide what item you need for what game.

*I'm just gonna mention some quick items, this is a pugna guide, not a support guide. Where you place the wards is a different story.

Starting Items



In general as a supporter, it is your job to provide your team with everything it needs. Make sure your carries can farm safely. Give them a chicken and vision on the map. Have some hp and mana regen to harass and be able to restore everything after 3vs3 fight.

Possible Follow-Up Items



Upgrade the chicken, buy more wards because your teams needs to have permanent vision on the map. Perhaps counter some wards of theirs. Headress provides hp regen for your teammates on the tri-lane and is a set-up item for your core. Magic wand is still needed against a caster line-up. Basi ring should also be on any tri-lane, especially in a pushing strategy. Smoke for ganking.

Core Items



Doesnt seem like much does it?

Extra Core Items



All of these items are team orientated.



I can't stress it enough! This is the best item there is! Being with your buddies when the shit hits the fan is the most awesome and important thing in dota! I usually buy them in stacks of 2-3 when i have +- 400g.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:20 PM   #35
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Sphere is a pussy item and hex doesn't allow Pugna to capitalize on his early game strengths. Seems like a pretty terrible core.

Especially since a core is supposed to be worth like 4k gold before your lux items...
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:55 PM   #36
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Default Re: Pugna items!

I like Hex in general, but it has a really shit buildup (this is especially noticeable when things like Urn and Medallion exist). Good job running around with Treads/Ultimate Orb at 20 minutes?
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Old 09-02-2011, 03:36 PM   #37
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by badmafa View Post
I like Hex in general, but it has a really shit buildup (this is especially noticeable when things like Urn and Medallion exist). Good job running around with Treads/Ultimate Orb at 20 minutes?
I'd push that back to about 14 minutes and mention the 4-6 minutes of feeding/missed kills that follow.
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:31 PM   #38
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
More or less this.

You see your idot ally running to a wave half the map away. TP in to wipe it with AOE then walk into the neuts as they proceed to push the lane to the enemy base.
Ho, i get it now!

Quote:
You go Travs so you can monopolize your team's farm.
This is not the only reason, but it is an important one. Remember that BOT provides an insane amount of MS (that makes you reach almost max ms after euls and activated jango), free tps (so later in the game that BOT will pay for itself) and an extra item slot wich is VERY important on pugna.

BOT is then a must for me in case you decide not to go for an all agresive strategy and go up hill before the 25 min mark.

Quote:
I like Hex in general, but it has a really shit buildup (this is especially noticeable when things like Urn and Medallion exist). Good job running around with Treads/Ultimate Orb at 20 minutes?
I agree.

Early hex is just garbage IMO, as kris has already mentioned it has one of the most terrible build up ever. Just for the price of a mystic staff you can get an eul and focus on other important items such as meka or other survibability items (point boster, ogre axe, etc).

As a super late game item (one of your last luxuries) it is viable, as always.
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:42 PM   #39
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Treads, Meka, Urn, Wand.
Meka is core as it gives you some armor which you lack & a reliable heal which can turn tables in early game ganks/fights. Also the heal early on is more reliable than life drain heal.

Pugna's high int growth means that %age based mana regen items are better than fixed mana regen(Basillus).

After meka the game is your playground. You should build according to what your team needs. Pugna is a great & fast farmer & hence can afford a lot of items.
Scepter is a preferred item as it makes your life drain very stronk & spammable.
Veil of Discord can be pretty good though if you have lots of AoE crap storm in your team.

Troll build
Battle pugnab
Deso/Mjoll, Ethereal blade, Manta etc.
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:56 PM   #40
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Default Re: Pugna items!

Quote:
Originally Posted by No0b.1337 View Post
Pugna's high int growth means that %age based mana regen items are better than fixed mana regen(Basillus).
Basi is for pushing/lane control
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