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Old 09-24-2011, 04:51 PM   #41
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Default Sange: The New Vanguard?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RaidenStorms View Post
For Dragon Knight, why would you even want to buy a Vanguard on him?
Extra tankiness, my friend. HP regen stacks. Dmg block stacks with armor (not in the best way, but they actually work together). With Dragon Blood fully leveled AND Vang, he can towerdive through like 3 enemy towers and a bunch of enemies and come out alive. That's some serious tank business

but, if you're rushing Sange, your welcome. S&Y + frost attack is serious slowing late game and can net olololol rampages.
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Old 09-24-2011, 04:52 PM   #42
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Again with regen. On beginning of the game, you'll get consumable items which grant you regeneration, right? Why not rely on babysitters (which you usually lane with) to heal you anyways? Vanguard's usefulness drop faster than Sange+PMS. Probably if you get a extremely early Vanguard, its only game breaking then. Buying it later (like past 25 minutes) have 0 impact on entire game.
@ Star_Saber Problem is, that damage block isnt so useful when you're in your ranged form (unless Vanguard stays as (Melee) when he morphs)? Does it?oO
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Old 09-24-2011, 04:55 PM   #43
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Vang's also good against Dazzle and his omgwtfbbq -4574578 armor ulti.

Or all sorts of -armor skills.

Or illusion skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaidenStorms View Post
@ Star_Saber Problem is, that damage block isnt so useful when you're in your ranged form (unless Vanguard stays as (Melee) when he morphs)? Does it?oO
it does.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:03 PM   #44
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by RaidenStorms View Post
Again with regen. On beginning of the game, you'll get consumable items which grant you regeneration, right? Why not rely on babysitters (which you usually lane with) to heal you anyways?
because they can't stick to me in the whole game and it costs them gold
Vanguard's usefulness drop faster than Sange+PMS. Probably if you get a extremely early Vanguard, its only game breaking then. Buying it later (like past 25 minutes) have 0 impact on entire game. Why on earth would anyone get vanguard at/after 25th min? If someone finishes Vanguard around 25 th min the player is terrible.
red
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Last edited by Floryda; 09-24-2011 at 05:13 PM.
Old 09-24-2011, 05:03 PM   #45
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
Vang's also good against Dazzle and his omgwtfbbq -4574578 armor ulti.

Or all sorts of -armor skills.

Or illusion skills.



it does.
Thanks, all I needed to know. Perhaps I'll build VG on DK more often now.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:07 PM   #46
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by Pwntlolz View Post
Right, because after a teamfight you desperately need that 5 hp regen
Raw hp can save your life whereas regen really cant
A Ring of health MIGHT provide 50 hp in the course of a teamfight, so gamebreaking
what makes you think regen is for teamfights?

-.-

this point has been tired over and over again in countless threads.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:11 PM   #47
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Different items have different purposes. Vanguard is good on those who need survivability and play passively (Krob, Razor, Bristleback) whereas Sange needs the wearer to attack to be effective. For melees (Magina, Lycan, etc)it's obvious that basher is far better (stuns>slows) as you can't beat the enemy carry otherwise. For ranged instead there is Manta (ranged illusions can land hits while melee illus are not so effective) to boost damage and increase survivability. If IF wants to make sange viable he'll need to change the recipe imo.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:21 PM   #48
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Default

I think people are considering Sange to replace VG for all the wrong reasons. I see people in this thread suggesting that Sange should be upgraded into S&Y on a bunch of heroes, that could make better items in my opinion.

If you want survivablity you could also pick up a Vit or Point Booster, depending on your hero. Even some armor or magic resistance would be fine.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:35 PM   #49
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

In DotA, there is no general "better" evalution. You cannot just say Sange is better than Vanguard. It's even stupid to say that Circlet of Nobility is better than Ironwood Branch. It has to be "better in term of something".
And yes, Sange is better in term of offensive purpose and Vanguard is better in term of defensive purpose. Sange provides a little extra hp but Vanguard gives precious regen and dmg block, and believe me, those things are of huge value. With a Vanguard, an AM could be confidence in lane and just laughs at enemy attempts to harass him; making him speed up on his farming and some survivability during early teamfight and towerdives, if needed. Rushing Sange would make your farming in lane as hard as crap; except you are playing against a bunch of noobs who always give you good time lasthitting their creeps for coins.
I would say that it's possibe for melee carry heroes that already have some sort of survivability in lanes (i.e TB with Zeal or DK with Dragon Blood and maybe Alchemist with Rage), to prioritize Sange over Vanguard. However, most other melee carry badly need what Vanguard offers: survivability; well, except for PA who can lasthit from afar with ease. Also for supporters who need to stay as long as possible in teamfight (i.e CM, Silencer or Dazzle), Vanguard is not a bad choice though.

So, it much depend on the heroes, and maybe on your opponents, too. You can even rush Rapier on an AM in a match against a whole team of noobs.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:39 PM   #50
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FightF4te View Post
I think people are considering Sange to replace VG for all the wrong reasons. I see people in this thread suggesting that Sange should be upgraded into S&Y on a bunch of heroes, that could make better items in my opinion.
well of course that Sange SHOULD always be upgraded into S&Y, you could debate whether you're going to do it earlier ot later, but leaving it as a mere Sange doesn't make sense does it?

Or would you buy Ogre Axe and not make Sange or BKB or Agha with it?
Or would you buy Ult Orb and not make Manta/Linken's/Skadi/Guinsoo with it?
etc
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Old 09-24-2011, 06:00 PM   #51
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwntlolz View Post
Right, because after a teamfight you desperately need that 5 hp regen
Raw hp can save your life whereas regen really cant
A Ring of health MIGHT provide 50 hp in the course of a teamfight, so gamebreaking
Dumb as fuck. You're happily farming with magina and WR comes to ur lane, fires 2 powershots. 30 sec later enemy team gathers for a push, teamfight is incoming.

Vanguard: ur hp regenerated in those 30 sec and u're ready for a teamfight
Sange: U're now on 60% hp instead of 50% u had 30 sec ago. Go in and die or let them have the tower?
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Old 09-24-2011, 06:54 PM   #52
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Well, maybe if sange had better upgrade than just SnY then perhaps but since it does not I would pick Vanguard.
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:00 PM   #53
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by Lama051 View Post
Well, maybe if sange had better upgrade than just SnY then perhaps but since it does not I would pick Vanguard.
... which has no upgrades at all?
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:06 PM   #54
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

VG+Reaver should make Heart. That would be lol ^^

either way, vanguard is godsend against towers. ANd if you want to push (and what else do you do nowadays in organized? with ganking dead, all you do is team fight near towers/rosh/whatever), you'll want it dearly.
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:11 PM   #55
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by LouisAcosta View Post
I still prefer Vanguard because the hp bonus is greater. It has regen too, and Sange is only good if bought by Strength Heroes for the extra damage. But if I am Shadow Demon, I will get Vanguard.
wait did I read the first post wrong?

Vanguard:
+275 HP
+6 HP/Sec
70% 40/20 Damage Block

Sange:
+16 STR (=304 HP)
+10 Damage
+15% Chance to Maim


nope.. just fail
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:15 PM   #56
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno167 View Post
VG+Reaver should make Heart. That would be lol ^^

either way, vanguard is godsend against towers. ANd if you want to push (and what else do you do nowadays in organized? with ganking dead, all you do is team fight near towers/rosh/whatever), you'll want it dearly.
Well, SnY is weak item despite many buffs it received.
Manta>SnY on any hero.
And since Raw HP+ regen > minor stats + unreliable slow
Then Vanguard > Sange
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:16 PM   #57
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

btw, another fail is that vg+manta is possible, but sange+manta isn't. The instant you make yasha, it will become SnY which you may not want. And yasha is cheap and powerful item most vg users like (especially AM). Most people prefer Manta over SnY.
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:34 PM   #58
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
well of course that Sange SHOULD always be upgraded into S&Y, you could debate whether you're going to do it earlier ot later, but leaving it as a mere Sange doesn't make sense does it?

Or would you buy Ogre Axe and not make Sange or BKB or Agha with it?
Or would you buy Ult Orb and not make Manta/Linken's/Skadi/Guinsoo with it?
etc
Or would you buy Ghost Scepter and not make.. OH WAIT!
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:42 PM   #59
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

sange is mb better in teamfights against aoe teams, in carry fights(farm and actually fight) and against summons strategies vanguard is just better for all melee heroes...
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Old 09-24-2011, 08:04 PM   #60
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Budi View Post
Lately I figured that Sange is a much better choice (especially for ranged heroes) than Vangurad.

When you take a look at the stats:
Vanguard:
+275 HP
+6 HP/Sec
70% 40/20 Damage Block

Sange:
+16 STR (=304 HP)
+10 Damage
+15% Chance to Maim

Obviously Vanguard is a little bit better at tanking physical damage and has regeneration, but isn't Sange a much better choice for "offensive" heroes that have low life like for example... every carry?
I tend to get it on heroes when I get HOTD.

There is nothing in the game that can replace vanguard in the early-mid stages though.
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Old 09-24-2011, 08:36 PM   #61
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by Fixthemix View Post
Or would you buy Ghost Scepter and not make.. OH WAIT!
wait what? a lot of the heroes you would get Ghost on have actual synergy with EB.
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:14 PM   #62
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
well of course that Sange SHOULD always be upgraded into S&Y, you could debate whether you're going to do it earlier ot later, but leaving it as a mere Sange doesn't make sense does it?

Or would you buy Ogre Axe and not make Sange or BKB or Agha with it?
Or would you buy Ult Orb and not make Manta/Linken's/Skadi/Guinsoo with it?
etc
Yes I agree that Sange should definitely be upgraded into S&Y. What I was trying to say is that S&Y isn't the ideal item for some of the heroes it was suggested for. In which case I believe, a Vit/Point Booster serves a greater purpose.

You also neglected that VG can't be upgraded into something better either.
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:17 PM   #63
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
wait what? a lot of the heroes you would get Ghost on have actual synergy with EB.
I thought squishy supports who can barely farm the 1600 were the usual candidates for Ghost Scepter? Doubt they'll throw 3400 towards an Eaglehorn.

My point is you don't always have to upgrade your items to the latest tier, just look at Dagon.

And if you for some reason get Sange on N'aix, it's probably better to spend the 2150 gold a Yasha would cost on something else, and just leave the Sange as a Sange.
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:36 PM   #64
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by Fixthemix View Post
I thought squishy supports who can barely farm the 1600 were the usual candidates for Ghost Scepter? Doubt they'll throw 3400 towards an Eaglehorn.
They don't do it because a realistic game doesn't last THAT long. but if I was a WD or CM with a Ghost already, and the game is lasting long yes I'd consider sparing some money for Eaglehorn. Yes there are priorities, but if those are covered already, why not?

Quote:
My point is you don't always have to upgrade your items to the latest tier, just look at Dagon.
No, it's this I disagree with. You just DONT buy a Hyperstone if you're NOT going to make AC/Mjolnir sometime later in the game. Item priorities do not override this.

I mean, it may be the case that you're a carry and were farming a lot and then went to gank & scored 4 kills in that single gank so you found yourself with a shitton of gold in your hands, you bought that Hyperstone, but then decided that a BKB was more important, so you go farm Ogre Axe, then Hammer, then BKB recipe. Good, u have BKB now, and still a bare Hyperstone in your inventory. You go for another gank now, you succeed in killing 3 of them with your magic immunity, but the game keeps going, it's not decided yet, they can still make a comeback. So, you proceed to finish the Cuirass or Mjolnir. One last fight, you & your team kill them all, only at this time they can't buyback or recover momentum somehow. And there it is, the whole gold invested on that early Hyperstone having finally paid itself back & won the game.
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Old 09-25-2011, 01:34 AM   #65
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

ITT: SPECULATING AND NOTHING ELSE
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Old 09-25-2011, 01:52 AM   #66
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by Fixthemix View Post
I thought squishy supports who can barely farm the 1600 were the usual candidates for Ghost Scepter? Doubt they'll throw 3400 towards an Eaglehorn.
Eaglehorn is 3200 iirc.
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Old 09-25-2011, 01:59 AM   #67
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by knifeman View Post
Eaglehorn is 3200 iirc.
its 3300
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:21 AM   #68
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by Pwntlolz View Post
why is regen so special to you, after laning phase the regen gets pretty useless since you either die or you live and then you farm creeps which cant really "harass" you

15% slow is fucking useful, if you think its useless then you deserve to be shot
monsterlord is right
HAHA I LAUGHED.
no seriously you are a troll, you are saying that 15% slow that occurs like 1/50 attacks is better than 6 regen and damage block. fucking troll
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:36 AM   #69
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Lets see, Vanguard is a defensive item.
Sange, is an offense oriented item.

Why the hell are you buying Sange over proper offense items? lol, honestley if you aren't after some good damageblock/regen for farming and stuff, why not just get a bracer/vitality(HoT later?)/Ogres Axe (BKB?) instead, and spend the rest of the money on something that is giving you good DPS/offense?
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Old 09-25-2011, 06:59 AM   #70
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by cairnebloodhoof View Post
HAHA I LAUGHED.
no seriously you are a troll, you are saying that 15% slow that occurs like 1/50 attacks is better than 6 regen and damage block. fucking troll
15% is 1 in 6.6666
fucking troll
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:05 AM   #71
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

It highly depends on the hero. If the hero has built in regen or a tanking skill, then Sange would be the way to go; if they're lacking, then they should go for Vanguard
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Old 09-25-2011, 04:47 PM   #72
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Imo, Sange > Vanguard on low-HP carry/DPS heroes who have an innate defensive ability and would benefit more from offensive attributes rather than defensive attributes. However, in instances where the opposing lineup has a great deal of physical damage output, Vanguard > Sange usually.
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:11 PM   #73
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwntlolz View Post
15% is 1 in 6.6666
fucking troll
First of all it's PRD which means you can encourage it to proc in 1-2 attacks if you care enough.

Second of all arguing that regen doesn't matter in midgame is a pretty poor position to take. Unless you are left alone you will stay at dangerous HP levels for a significant portion of time without a regen item. This just encourages the opposing team to gank you which is not really what you want if you are playing a hero who wants to farm creeps.
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Old 09-25-2011, 07:25 PM   #74
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
First of all it's PRD which means you can encourage it to proc in 1-2 attacks if you care enough.

Second of all arguing that regen doesn't matter in midgame is a pretty poor position to take. Unless you are left alone you will stay at dangerous HP levels for a significant portion of time without a regen item. This just encourages the opposing team to gank you which is not really what you want if you are playing a hero who wants to farm creeps.
Or you can have a crow ferry a salve to you.
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:00 PM   #75
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by CelestialRice View Post
Everyone who gets a vanguard on a ranged hero should shoot themselves. Name one hero you get it on and I can give you a better alternative for a close price.
Veno

And dont say mek. He has enough problems casting gale + ult already.
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:09 PM   #76
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
First of all it's PRD which means you can encourage it to proc in 1-2 attacks if you care enough.
actually now that sange is triggered it does not use prd.
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:15 PM   #77
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Quote:
Everyone who gets a vanguard on a ranged hero should shoot themselves. Name one hero you get it on and I can give you a better alternative for a close price.
bat rider
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:26 PM   #78
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

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Originally Posted by Nugatory View Post
Or you can have a crow ferry a salve to you.
It sucks a lot in practice when you actually do it.
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:32 PM   #79
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

It saddens me how people underestimate the EHP that damage block provides.

**Edit**
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidNitrogen View Post
the ehp boost of damage block is so underrated...

If you're getting money and building mid-price items mostly sange can be better but vanguard is still the way to go a lot of the time.
Pretty much this.
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Old 09-26-2011, 12:42 AM   #80
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Default Re: Sange: The New Vanguard?

Kris, I got news for you.

Maim does not use PRD
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