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Old 10-12-2011, 01:56 AM   #1
Bloodmoth
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Default [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandworm


A) Inspiration/Concept:

The concept of huge tunnelling earthworms isn't really new. It has been used a million times in movies (Tremors, Star Wars, Starship Troopers etc.), animes (Dragonball GT), and fantasy games (D&D) alike. They have made their appearance in computer games as well, a fine example being Starcraft 2 nydus worms, even if only for army transportation purposes (Also FF, Dune etc.). The main idea behind the earthworm that makes it such a great concept is the fact that its attacks can be very very surprising since it is concealed from sight by moving underground and launching sudden strikes from there, when least expected. Another similar concept I liked is the desert devouring worm. It seems to be immobile, and create some kind of quicksand effect that draws prey towards its huge mouth. It is usually buried under the sand, and the prey doesn't realise it is there until it is too late.

All in all, I found the concept very fitting for a strength dire ganker hero . Why the hell dire and not scourge? Well, the idea has been forming in my head for a long time, but one of the skills I wanted to create for my hero, couldn't easily (if at all) been created for WCIII DotA. So here we go, and in that sense this is a DotA 2 exclusive suggestion (unless someone with more knowledge than me about what can be done in current DotA confirms we can make the skill with good old WCIII engine).


UPDATE (21/10/2011): The helpful people over at the Advanced mechanics forum affirmed that the second skill (Predatory Senses), isn't codable in WC3 DotA. The hero as he stands now can only be viewed as a DotA 2 suggestion. The full answer is in the spoiler below.

Quote:
"Shows all units that aren't visible and moving with speed > 100ms as a red mark on the ground."
Codable.

"Does NOT grant vision of the targets."
Not really codable. It would reveal the Fog of War around those units.

"Allied heroes can't see the marks."
Codable.

"Shows invisible units as well, even when they are inside his line of sight, as long as they are not detected/he doesn't have actual sight of them."
Codable.

Reading the above you'll realise the real problem is seeing the marks in the fog of war without actual sight of the spot, which is impossible. As an extent, allies will also be able to see the enemy, nullifying the (otherwise codable) "Allies can't see the marks" part. Problem on two sides... Oh well


Conceptually, the skills I made use 4 fundamental elements of the sandworms I have seen:

1) Tunnelling and Launching Surprise attacks (Skill 1)
2) Using the vibrations made by prey walking on the ground as a means to locate it (Skill 2 - Not sure if possible to make in WCIII DotA)
3) The ability of several worms to fully regenerate their body even if a significant part of it is lost (Skill 3)
4) Lurking underground setting a trap for unsuspected prey and pulling it towards their huge mouth quicksand style (Ultimate).

So, this is the general idea. I will get into the specifics later. Remember, numbers can be adjusted, primarily I want the concept rated and fixed. I'll be posting the full skill descriptions as soon as possible.

Also, adding a few random photos from the net to have a general idea about the look of such a hero.










B) Hero Attributes/Skillset/Details:








DEVOURING SANDWORM
SKINCRAWLER



*The model isn't made by me. The creator is Sephiroth_VII so props to him. You can download the model from hive workshop or I'll upload here once and if I get the creator's consent!






Screenshots:






*Added a map. The hero doesn't have any of his skills appearing here. It is basically the unit Sephiroth_VII has made, scaled down. I uploaded here, so that anyone can have a rough look at what such a hero will look like. With a bit of luck and if some friends of mine can be arsed, I will have a real test map some time soon.
Attached Files
File Type: w3x Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandworm V0.1.w3x (177.3 KB, 109 views)
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Last edited by Bloodmoth; 01-10-2012 at 04:50 AM.
Old 10-12-2011, 02:28 AM   #2
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Default [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandworm

I have the hero concept and the skills ready. Numbers will need adjusting, and I will need some icons. Starting the thread and I'll be adding little by little. Please refrain from posting / commenting / critisising until I'm done at least with the basics. Thanks!!


Changelogs:

(12/10/2011): Started the thread.

Edit 1 (13/10/2011): Added inspiration/concept and skill overview.

Edit 2 (13/10/2011): Starting adding details in a tabbed presentation format. It will take some time, but having some progress. Hopefully it will be complete in a few days.

Edit 3 (13/10/2011): First tab (Hero Introduction / Hero Model) is complete, with hero title/name, hero icon,model and skill icons. Calling it a day and going for sleep. Hopefully back to add the hero background story tommorow morning.

Edit 4 (14/10/2011): Added information in the Attributes tab, including Statistics and Advanced Statistics. Also, added a note giving credit to Sephiroth_VII who is the original creator of the model you can see here!

Edit 5 (14/10/2011): Finished with the hero background story, and added short comments/justifications to the hero's stats. Will now slowly start adding his skills, so that you guys can bash my hero and make suggestions!!

Edit 6 (15/10/2011): First skill and its subskill is now complete! It is the main skill of Skincrawler and the first to max in his skillbuild. Also added names for all his skills, icons, and all the shortcuts, which ended up on a nice [Q], [E], [R], [T] layout and are easy to remember!!

Edit 7 (15/10/2011): Second skill is up as well. It is Skincrawler's tracking tool, and one of the skills that make him what he is: A ganker. To avoid imbalances his skill can't be seen by allies, so a good Skincrawler player must be able to communicate well.

Edit 8 (15/10/2011): Maybe the most important update of them all: Skincrawler's ultimate is ready!!! The puzzle pieces are coming together. Skincrawler tracks lone heroes with his second skill, notifies his allies, then performs his deadly combo, locking the poor enemy in place for his allies to wear him down which will ultimately lead to him being devoured!! ... But I'm getting ahead of myself. That stuff belongs to synergy. One more skill to go!

Edit 9 (15/10/2011): After lots of hard work, my hero is ready! Checking some details before shamelessly bumping him to get feedback. There is of course more stuff to be added, like synergy, etc, so keep checking the changelog!

Edit 10 (15/10/2011): Added an example of how the ultimate works and filled the tab of Skill synergy! Also added a new version of my hero background story. Special thanks to alwaysgorandom for the corrections and alterations!

Edit 11 (15/10/2011): I have made the bump to first page and the hero is ready for criticism! In that direction, I remade the last tab into a Q&A section where I'll file all the questions that will (hopefully) arise by the people who will actually bother giving Skincrawler a look, and the answers/clarifications I will provide, in order to create an easy-to-access information page about the hero, based on actual issues/problems people encountered when they read through his hero page.

Edit 12 (16/10/2011): Added an Aghanim's effect, mentioned also as a buff in the section below. Since I didn't want to make his ulti more powerful, but rather safer, I added a delay before Skincrawler comes out of invisibility after he springs his trap.

Edit 13 (19/10/2011): Added a map. The hero doesn't have any of his skills appearing here. It is basically the unit Sephiroth_VII has made, scaled down. I uploaded here, so that anyone can have a rough look at what such a hero will look like. With a bit of luck and if some friends of mine can be arsed, I will have a real test map some time soon. Also added some Q&A on the appropriate section.

Edit 14 (21/10/2011): The helpful people over at the Advanced mechanics forum affirmed that the second skill (Predatory Senses), isn't codable in WC3 DotA. The hero as he stands now can only be viewed as a DotA 2 suggestion. Details in the OP.

Edit 15 (23/10/2011): The new subkill of Skincrawler's mini-selfs, Heart Pressure Explosion, is now complete! You can see the details in the updated Reactive Split tab, and more specifically in the all-new Spoiler tab which has the details and the skills for the worms! Also, Regenerate now has a convenient [R] hotkey to match the main skill's hotkey! Nice
Finally, there's a number of balance fixes to counterweight this new buff a bit, and you can find them in the balance section below.

Edit 16 (24/10/2011): Added a few notes on the worm subskills, Heart Pressure Explosion and Regenerate. They serve as clarifications and hopefully will make more understandable how the skills work and how they are supposed to be used. Refer to post #33 for more details or simply see the actual notes in the OP.

Edit 17 (27/10/2011): Finally the Item Guide section is starting to take shape! I finished a nice and (I hope) informative diagram about Skincrawler's Itembuild! A written guide was added as well. All this information can of course be found under Synergy/Item Guide tab.

Edit 18 (29/10/2011): Added 2 screenshots of Skincrawler in DotA environment in the OP and finished the item guilde. Various typo / grammar and syntax fixes throughout the post.

Edit 19 (10/01/2012): Added a new question in the Q&A section. There are also more heroes in the Hero Synergy tab.






Balance Section:


(15/10/2011): Since skills are ready, the balancing process begins! Nerfs in pink, buffs in green!

15/10/2011: Nerfed Tunnelling mana cost (50/60/70/80 -->80/80/90/90) and Emerge mana cost (50 --> 40/50/50/60) a bit.
15/10/2011: Made a clarification that using Blink Dagger wastes your ulti.
15/10/2011: Added a clarification that Quicksand Deathtrap works against invisible units. It was intended, but seems like I forgot it! Thanks to DreamEvil for making me check.

16/10/2011: Added an Aghanim's effect.

23/10/2011: Added a new subskill to the worms: Heart Pressure Explosion.
23/10/2011: Added a 35-50g bounty for the worms Skincrawler splits into.
23/10/2011: Nerfed Reactive Split's mana cost a bit from a constant 120 to a scaling 110/120/130/140.
23/10/2011: Nerfed Regenerate by doubling the channeling time from 2 to 4 seconds! Now it is obvious you need to regenerate in safety and not mid-battle or you will leave yourself open to be killed.

29/10/2011: Buffed Aghanim's invisibility duration from 2/2,5/3 to 2/3/4 seconds and improved damage with Aghanims by 10dps.
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Last edited by Bloodmoth; 01-10-2012 at 04:52 AM.
Old 10-15-2011, 08:19 AM   #3
Bloodmoth
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

Le Bump!

Hero is ready for the most part, and is now open to critisism! I don't mind negative comments, but please read carefully through the skills and ask for clarifications if needed. If you didn't understand a skill well, you might dislike it, and it is also a sign that I might need to explain things better. The point here isn't only to critisise or make myself feel good/bad depending on your impressions, but also make improvements/balance the hero.

Please read the changelog, as it is often helpful. I hope you enjoy this hero as much as I enjoyed making him. At least in my own eyes, he seems like a fun addition to the ranks of the Dire!
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

I like it.

Tunneling - Not a bad idea, I'm not 100% positive I like the emerge subskill. You're gaining invisibility for a short time, and move speed. Then, at the end, if you can get into position, you can damage and stun the enemy? Seems powerful, but I can't say overpowered for sure. I'd have to see it in action to understand how it would play out. But It sounds like you'd get both anytime you wanted because of the faster movespeed.

Predatory Senses - I like this. You don't reveal who is there, nor be able to directly attack them, but you know someone is at a certain spot. Would make sense for a worm with no eyes.

Reactive Split - At first I thought this was too good because I assumed you could use tunneling directly after splitting. Then I read the notes and found that the halves can only cast Regenerate and can't use items. So you'd have to Split -> Regenerate -> Tunneling to use this as an effective escape mechanism. Makes it take some skill while still being a great way to get out of death. I think it's good.

Quicksand Deathtrap - The only thing I don't like about this is the 15% instakill. You get to spring a trap that is a great idea. Damaging both hero's involved is neat, and the enemy gets disabled. I don't see the reason to gain one strength and take one from the enemy, and i don't like adding an instakill on an ability that disables. I would also say that maybe you should let them do normal attacks to you, but they'd still take 50% of that damage as well. Then they can attack all they want, but it'll only weaken them further. Then, if they do kill you, your allies can take them out even faster. *Shrug* I like it as is just as much.

Overall, I like this hero.

--I just checked the synergy, and Quicksand can target invisible enemies? I really like that and really want to see the instakill taken out.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

Thanks for the feedback man, and thanks for being the first to comment in my thread! On to your points:

About first skill: Yes it is powerful and that's the idea. If anything, it is too powerful as it is an escape mechanism or an initiation tool 2-in-1. But nothing in DotA can be looked out of context. His Emerge and Ulti aside, Skincrawler is a melee hero with no damage boosts/steroid skills, no way to keep with the enemy and in general, insignificant damage. Don't forget Tunneling isn't exactly spammable, like Sucuchi per say, or Crixalis' Burrow Strike. It is something like a combination, but on a way longer cd. Also, emerge costs 150 mana, which is not exactly cheap.

About ultimate: You seem to dislike the devouring/instakill part, but that's the whole concept of the skill... You are pulling the enemy towards his death, if he is weak enough to be able resist, he is getting eaten alive. The damage (instakilling aside) is laughable for an ultimate, and its sole use is to disable the enemy for your allies to wear down till he gets devoured. The split damage effect is used primarily to discourage people attacking you while you channel and being a sitting duck, or risk kill their own ally, and help you devour him. The devouring part (stealing/gaining dtr) is a nice incentive to gank, (because that's what you should do when playing as Skincrawler) and a way to keep your str stat high throughout the game. In that sense, it covers for the rather unimpressive str. gain of the hero.

EDIT: About pulling invisible heroes as well. Skincrawler counters invisible heroes very well with his second skill, so I added this as a forced synergy, but I'm really happy with it concept-wise and gameplay wise. When you see the red mark over your AoE, press "Q" and enjoy! hehe

EDIT2: That's why I need your feedback! Checked again and though I totally intended for Quicksand to target invisible heroes as well, I had forgotten to add it in the skill notes! Added it now, updated changelog, and created a Q/A about it in the Q&A tab! Thanks DreamEvil!
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Last edited by Bloodmoth; 10-15-2011 at 03:46 PM.
Old 10-15-2011, 08:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

i like the model... gj to Sephiroth_VII
GL
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Old 10-15-2011, 08:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

Quote:
EDIT2: That's why I need your feedback! Checked again and though I totally intended for Quicksand to target invisible heroes as well, I had forgotten to add it in the skill notes! Added it now, updated changelog, and created a Q/A about it in the Q&A tab! Thanks DreamEvil!
Not a problem. I enjoy playing DOTA, but being a writer/programmer, I also love the what if's and such.

I can definitely see where you are going with the damage being low, so I guess the instakill should just be added to the damage in my mind. I didn't really take that into account the first time through. Would be extremely effective against strength carries.
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:36 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

Quote:
i like the model... gj to Sephiroth_VII
GL
Me too. Hope he answers to my PM soon, since I need some details about it (attack/casting animation values), and I'd love to be able to post it here for people to download. Also, maybe try to make an actual test map. But that's probably once again me thinking too much forward.


For the time being, I need some opinions about the hero's itembuild. I think some basic items are obvious (Magic Wand, Urn, Bracers, Arcane boots). Also, one can't fail getting tanky items on him (HoT, Blade mail especially, Hood). I'm puzzled about magic immunity/protection items (BKB, Linken's). Somehow they seem less powerful on him than they should in theory. Shiva's can maybe be used as well. Lastly, what would you say about Radiance? Is it worth it and can he farm it fast enough? My initial thought is no, but really need more opinions on the items in general, before I start working on the item synergy tab...

By the way, I think he could really benefit by Aghanim's, most probably having it as core, seeing as he is totally item independent and he can use the hp/mp boost and of course the ultimate boost as well. Thinking about what the Aghanim's effect can be at the moment, though I think I have it almost figured out...

EDIT: Aghanim's effect is ready indeed! See skill tab and changelog for more info.
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Last edited by Bloodmoth; 10-16-2011 at 02:47 AM.
Old 10-16-2011, 02:43 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

Cool! D
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Old 10-17-2011, 05:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

What if you added a suicide option to one of the two reactive split worms? A sacrifice to save the other, for example?

Explodes for XX% slow and XX%chance to miss?

Also, need to consider what the bounty for killing one of the split worms would be.

I'd shoot for around 50-100 gold, or maybe a variance according to hero level? say 20 g + 3xlevel?

(eg. lvl 10 50 gold, lvl 20 80 gold) ?
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Old 10-18-2011, 01:57 AM   #11
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

I like the hero TBH but I'll put a review tommorow after school
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

Here is mine:

The hero seems to focus on burrowing skills which is somewhat new and fresh. That's good. What bothers me is the hero model, it is somehow different to Warcraft units looks like and not so DotA'ish. Although I think it's really cool. One more thing that intrigue me, how does he walk? Do he also walk via underground tunnel or his head sticking out of the ground and walk wobbly? XD

Skills:
Tunneling - A good skill from either escaping or surprising enemy heroes. The duration and effect of the skill seems fine. I also have a question about this skills; It says that it makes him temporarily invisible and gain an increase in movement speed while allowing him to pass through terrains and trees. My question is, if an enemy had an invisible detector, does it detect the real look of the hero or it can only see the burrow marks on the ground? It is somewhat are to detect IMO. I also think that it's his primary skill for him to use other skills effectively. Good skill though.

Predatory Sense - A passive that detects other heroes nearby. Good, but it somehow reminds me of Balanar's Aghanim vision at night, although it does not give vision of the units but only marks them. I think it's a good skill that can synergise with Tunneling for better ganking and surprising the enemies.

Reactive Split - A defensive skills that can be use at escaping troubles. I somewhat see the synergise of this skill with Tunneling also since if moving towards the enemies recklessly, you can use this to escape them if you think that you are at a big risk. It is the primary defensive skill of this hero I think since it also gives regenerate and does not only split the hero's self into two.

Quicksand Deathtrap - Again, a skill that synergise with Tunneling. It lures a hero with him that damages it and at the same time, making it as an hostage. XD
Since you two will share damage if his other allies try to save him. I think it's a fine skill since it is what the hero's concept focuses on. It can also boost his STR as time goes on which is good for him.

- I find the hero unique due to the concept and skill set. The hero model is what really bothers me. Although I think the hero will not do well if some of his skill, especially Tunneling, weren't unable to be used since the skill somehow rely on each other.

Overall, I like the hero. Good luck with it and sorry for my grammar. XD
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Old 10-18-2011, 06:31 PM   #13
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

Quote:
The 2 halfs of Skincrawler have no attack and they can't use items or skills other than Regenerate.
Quick clarification (for everyone to have a better understanding) regarding the split: does it refresh tunneling BEFORE or AFTER they regenerate?
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

first of all, i like the model you chose very much.
the icon set is matching the skill theme, which imho is quite interesting.

i'd very much like to see this hero implemented.
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

Wow I like the skills very much, but why does predatory senses have that 100 MS requirement? Every hero is faster than 100MS, why not just make it "moving enemies"?
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:35 PM   #16
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

I like the skills, and the model is very nice as well.
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

Really cool idea. I'd love to see a burrowing hero work in dota, here's to hoping it will get noticed!
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

lolol scary one, tunneling sounds awesome
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:17 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

Stats: Yea since his a ganker he will dominate early-mid game and let their carry to do the job. 10/10
BG and/or Synergy: epic BG i must admit. Synergies are well made 10/10

skill1: the skill is pretty cool TBH, but the sub-skill damage type? Why magic? since it's just the rocks that bursts out and hit the enemies in the head, why not physical damage? Why physical damage because i think it'll be random for the rocks to become magical. 8/10
skill2: IDK if it's codeable, but since your putting the dude in dota2 then why not? 10/10
skill3: The skill is very cool, but i have a question: Why does it have some heck of cool down? since it needs lots of mana, why not make it 50 or 55 or even 70? 8/10
ultimate: Yea the skill is very nice and cool but how can get damage since your invisible?(except when they get gem) 10/10

Overall: the hero seems pretty cool and fun. It just needs some nerfing of cd's IMHO. 56/60
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Old 10-18-2011, 11:14 PM   #20
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Default Re: [Dire - Str] Skincrawler, the Devouring Sandwo

This looks cool, even the skills fit the theme of the hero.
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