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Old 10-21-2011, 07:02 PM   #1
LEGEND OF DIV
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Default source engine unusable for dota2?


for me it looks like the engine will add extra delay to dota2 which feels like basic bnet
when dota2 will have delay by default I see less reason to switch
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:03 PM   #2
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Default Re: source engine unsuable for dota2?

It will be fixed, beta!
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

1. because counter strike has so much delay and is played in source engine.
2. net code, worldwide server availability
3. beta
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:05 PM   #4
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

note that most of valve games are FPS that why delay is just for a beta
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

They have 100 ms delay on purpose. I don't know why.
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGEND OF DIV View Post
for me it looks like the engine will add extra delay to dota2 which feels like basic bnet
when dota2 will have delay by default I see less reason to switch
Then for the hundredth time, don't switch.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

That will be fixed in the next updates. I think the game engine can be able to run Dota 2. Obviously, they are constantly tuning it.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:26 PM   #8
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

They can fix it.

Don't want to go back to HoN which will be the result if Dota2 isn't as good as we all expect it to be.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGEND OF DIV View Post
for me it looks like the engine will add extra delay to dota2 which feels like basic bnet
when dota2 will have delay by default I see less reason to switch
Don't switch, we don't need you!
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

I read that they are fixing that with the next patch.
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Old 10-21-2011, 11:00 PM   #11
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Solution: cl_interp 0
cl_interp_ratio -1
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Old 10-22-2011, 12:05 AM   #12
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

I ask for fogged( A HoN PRO that is in the dota2 beta) yesterday in his stream and he tell me that in the patch of thurday(10-20-11), they already fixed the artitificial delay.
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Old 10-22-2011, 01:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosenzweig View Post
They have 100 ms delay on purpose. I don't know why.
It's not on purpose. It's a limitation of the source engine, which is optimized for FPS and not RTS games. They're working on it.

You have access to the beta forums, you should know this better than I do.
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Old 10-22-2011, 01:58 AM   #14
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idclip View Post
Solution: cl_interp 0
cl_interp_ratio -1
That would mean a damn good amount of disconnections between non-polarized ports.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:01 AM   #15
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

meh idk
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:27 AM   #16
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

The "delay" which is not noticeable if you have a decent ping to the server will be furthermore reduced in the next patch thanks to Zoid. remember the name he is a superhero!
http://i.imgur.com/YLkzk.jpg

People are just overreacting. Nobody forces you to switch to the superawesome game that has no downsides.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:30 AM   #17
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

SC2 is worse. Really I expect DOTA2 to better or equal to HoN when it comes to it's responsiveness.
StarCraft 2 Unit Response Delay - YouTube
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:47 AM   #18
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Dota 2 unit response

i think someone already posted about this in this forum somewhere.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:48 AM   #19
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

As MeePwn said, this issue will soon be remedied with the upcoming patch. This 'delay' ,inherent to Source FPS games, is not intended and will not be intended for Dota 2.

The game is still in beta and obviously a lot of things are still being fixed/changed. So, I suggest the community not to prematurely judge the game.

EDIT: Edited out 'artificial'.
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Last edited by mus.ika; 10-22-2011 at 06:14 AM.
Old 10-22-2011, 02:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

YEP unit response time should really be reduced. There is no way it would imbalance the game!
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:56 AM   #21
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeble View Post
It's not on purpose. It's a limitation of the source engine, which is optimized for FPS and not RTS games. They're working on it.

You have access to the beta forums, you should know this better than I do.
Where is the source on this? Your claim is absolutely ridiculous without any information. Yes, RTS games are command based (programmed), but that only becomes a problem with there are several hundred units on the screen. I remember working on the UDK and there was this one game that was an RTS on the UDK forums that had very little to no delay.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:13 AM   #22
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosenzweig View Post
Where is the source on this? Your claim is absolutely ridiculous without any information. Yes, RTS games are command based (programmed), but that only becomes a problem with there are several hundred units on the screen. I remember working on the UDK and there was this one game that was an RTS on the UDK forums that had very little to no delay.
there you go
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoid;dev.dota2.com
Again, I don't recommend using that script. Let me explain how the networking model works in Dota 2 and where this "unit delay" people are describing is coming from.

The Source engine is an UDP based networking system that sends snapshot of the unit state to the client at regular intervals. This is the cl_updaterate and its currently locked at 20Hz on our servers right now. This means that every 50ms, the game transmits the position of all the units in the game, their states, etc. (For the curious, I worked with John Carmack when this model was developed in Quakeworld at id Software).

The way your client handles this is it interpolates between these snapshots. By default, the cl_interp_ratio is 2, which means it interpolates it between three snapshots. Let me explain with a timeline. This assumes you have zero ping (or very low ping):
Code:

Code:
Time       Server       Client
0.00       Snapshot A   Idle
0.05       Snapshot B   Gives command for the hero to move
0.10       Snapshot C   Idle
0.15       Snapshot D   Idle
In this case, you first get Snapshot A and the client doesn't do anything as it has no succeeding snapshot. Snapshot B comes in and the client starts interpolating the motion between A and B. At this point the client tells his hero to start moving. The server responds immediately to this command and starts moving the hero on the server. Snapshot C comes in, but the client is still interpolating between A to C since cl_interp is 0.1, or 10Hz. D eventually comes in and now you start seeing the unit fully respond to your movement command as now you are interpolating between B and D. We interpolate at 10Hz instead of 20Hz so if you lose a packet from the server or its delayed a few microseconds, we "smooth" over it by interpolating around the missed packet.

There isn't an artificial unit delay, its due to the interpolating between snapshots (which gives smooth motion on the client) that causes it to feel a bit delayed. Since the interpolation time is 10Hz (100ms), it can take roughly half that time, 50ms, before a unit starts to move or appear to respond to its latest command.

Now this model was tuned for games that have prediction such as Counterstrike, Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress 2, etc. Dota 2 doesn't have prediction as you're basically giving orders to units on battlefield. You're not directly controlling the player as you would in those games and there isn't hitscan based weapons that need prediction and lag compenstation in order to aim. You don't aim in Dota 2, you give commands.

With this, I'm exploring increasing the snapshot frequency to lower the interpolation time to 50ms. This will cause the perceived respond time to lower to around a 25ms average.

Of course, you need to add your ping time to all of this. If your ping is 135ms, then its going to take that much longer for the unit to respond. I'm not sure why the ping is so high from France to our new data center in Luxembourg. We recently relocated our servers there and we're still tweaking and talking to ISPs around there. I'll talk to our network administrators about it, but emailing me a traceroute would be great.
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Now I know Valve doesn't have job titles, but when it comes to DotA what is your responsibility to that project?
ErikJ: [Looks to Newell] What's my responsibility on this project?
GabeN: Uh... Being Meepo's punching bag.


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Old 10-22-2011, 03:18 AM   #23
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosenzweig View Post
Where is the source on this? Your claim is absolutely ridiculous without any information. Yes, RTS games are command based (programmed), but that only becomes a problem with there are several hundred units on the screen. I remember working on the UDK and there was this one game that was an RTS on the UDK forums that had very little to no delay.
OK, lemme just get a beta key and then search the forums for you. Should be anytime now.

Edit: oh, there you go. Hope it wasn't too hard to find.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:20 AM   #24
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

aka valve is working on it. dont qq and have faith in them
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:22 AM   #25
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Scroll up beeble, I fixed that for you.
Another thing I'd like to point out is 50ms really are just 0.05seconds. 300ms are 0.3. It's not like in bnet where it tells you you have 200ms and in reality it takes 3 seconds to move. Or listcheckers fake halved value to your original bnet ping.

So far you haven't seen a professional player complaining about delay in any interview or did you? People are making a bigger story out of this than it really is. I don't feel any delay playing on the european server.
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Now I know Valve doesn't have job titles, but when it comes to DotA what is your responsibility to that project?
ErikJ: [Looks to Newell] What's my responsibility on this project?
GabeN: Uh... Being Meepo's punching bag.


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Old 10-22-2011, 03:24 AM   #26
beeble
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

It's mainly people from HoN who are getting steamrolled and must find an excuse.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:30 AM   #27
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeePwn View Post
there you go

I'm no network programmer, but this seems like something fairly simple to fix. You could (as said in your quote) increase the frequency of the snapshots. Better yet, he could rework the snapshot system to not cause this delay but still give smoothness client side. That would probably require a rework of their render code, network code, and so on. Of course, this solution is much harder.

To clarify, I was talking about the abnormally high ping that we have on servers. SUNSfan said that the high ping was artificial.

I should probably email Zoid and talk to him about this, programmer and programmer. I really wish Valve would release the Source engine code (not going to happen). I am sure the community would love to submit patches and give tips on how to improve the overall structure.
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Old 10-22-2011, 05:37 AM   #28
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Just out of curiosity, how does HoN netcode work?
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Old 10-22-2011, 06:56 AM   #29
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

There is a console command to temporarily fix this atm but I forgot what it is
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Old 10-22-2011, 08:08 AM   #30
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

Thank god!
I really hope you don't switch :'D
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Old 10-22-2011, 08:15 AM   #31
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

I hope it will be fixed soon
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Old 10-22-2011, 08:45 AM   #32
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

The Source engine is more than capable for DotA 2; as already posted above, it's mostly a matter of tweaking. I have faith most latency issues will be resolved soon enough.
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Old 10-22-2011, 08:49 AM   #33
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Default Re: source engine unusable for dota2?

just because the variable is locked at 20Hz on the servers, it doesn't mean there is a limitation for it in the engine.
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