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What does a hero truly need? I think any hero suggestor has posed this question at least once. What is the essence of a good and successful hero? I've theorised about this for quite a while, and came to the conclusion that there are three important points to consider. These three points aren't standalone, they build up on each other. Before going in-depth into each individual point, here is at first a general layout of my conclusion:
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2.1 Why are skills the basis of each hero?
2.2 What type of skills are there? Clarification: Yes, there are active, passive, AoE-targeted, single-targeted and many more types of skills. No, that's not what I mean here. The type of skills I mean here is the role they have in the skillset.
2.3 What does a good skill need?
2.4 A skill's concept: the uniqueness
2.5 A skill's workout: the fluency/functionality
2.6 Summary/Conclusion So what have we learned so far:
I used to review all skills, synergies and gameplay right from the bat when I started reviewing hero ideas. However, what took me a while is how to figure out what makes synergies good: a concept, and that will be our next point. |
3.1 Skill Synergies & Comboes: the way skills work together Per definition, synergy is following (quoted by Dictionnary.com, credits to chadpiety123 and Eethn):
In DotA, skills can synergise in multiple ways:
For us, it's enough to figure out what synergy and skill comboes mean. 3.2 What does actually make Skill Synergies good? Now, we're treating a point that chadpiety123 has only scratched in his guide to synergy. Read the title of this chapter carefully: "What does actually make Skill Synergies good?" I did not write: "What makes Skill Synergies good?" This is for a good reason: Unfortunately, skill synergies are often only rated through their quantity, not through their quality.
3.3 What is a concept and which aspects of a hero play a role in it? The concept is the idea behind the skillset that explains why the skills have been put together like this. It gives you information about the general role, playstyle and skill combo of a hero.
3.4 How to figure out a hero's concept
3.5 Summary/Conclusion So what have we learned in this chapter:
So what is their problem? It can be flaws in the gameplay, which will also be a part in the next chapter, but we'll put more into this. Their problem would be that they lack of utility and this will be the last one of the three points. |
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#2 |
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First and foremost, good work! Its so bloody long that it took me a longgggg time to finish reading the thing.
Old and new players alike should benefit from reading this when creating a new hero. Judging from your criteria listed above, I think I lack in the utility department, my heroes tend to have an abstract placement when it comes to assigning them a role. As expected from you, the majority of the points are touched upon. Skills, synergy, utility, etc...I honestly don't have much to add about that, you already went in depth about everything I'd like to mention. However, one slight addition which I think is needed to the abilities section is a sub-heading or at least a slight mention of the "fun-factor". The cunning required and satisfaction received when landing that arrow or torrent just makes the hero in general popular (As seen in the Mirana usage spike a while ago, as well as kunkka, pudge, SF...etc). Also, I think that (although not as important as the topics you have listed already) you can add perhaps a theme/cosmetic portion to a hero (you touched upon niches briefly, but nothing much beyond that). GL on the rest of the guide! Support! E: Cool. 1700.
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#3 |
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Overall a good guide though one thing bothers me.
The fluency/functionality. It's kinda out of place considering most other things talking about the "result" of the hero while this talks about the "process". It'd more appropriate if talks about "self-synergy" in case you want to talk about the result.
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 953
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I would mention that hero's utility needs to fit current Meta-Game to result in being picked (overall: Meta-Game input). For example: Medusa.
We shouldn't remake existing under(not)picked heroes to fit current meta-game (imo) => We can made new hero with low/non utility in current meta-game. It is called alternative. It is really important to keep alive such alternatives, otherwise meta-game would stop changing, which would be really bad for game and players. It happens right now. :/ What is more, laning is more dependent on current meta-game and other heroes than on hero itself (imo). It is nothing wrong to not being able to lane in current meta game. In conclusion, utility =/= being picked, bad laning in current meta-game doesn't mean that hero lacks in utility. Imo, Ice Frog has been forcing current meta-game (by nerfs/buffs/new items and heroes/hero remakes). It's his intentional or not fault. |
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#5 | |||
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On the theme/cosmetic portion: I've completely neglected that for this guide, because I wanted to really touch the gameplay aspects. I can add a further chapter about this on popular demand, but that's not what I intended with the three points, they are meant to focus on the vital parts of a hero. Oh, an congrats ^_^ Quote:
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Being picked depends completely on how popular the hero is in the current meta-game, that's not what I mean. Pickable means whether the hero is viable in the game on the whole or not. This is not as much dependent on the meta-game. If you checked my laning option list, I've included all possible laning options in it (well, except for trilane mid or anything more than a trilane, because that would probably not be viable no matter how much the game changes). The question whether a hero is viable or not depends on many things. In the meta-game, we usually mean laning options and the main strategy used (farming, ganking, team-fighting or pushing). These things are interchangeable and will turn back over time. But the meta-game also include things like new heroes added, heroes remade, new items and other map changes. These things won't turn back, but can also interfere with a hero's pickability. Therefore, a hero that was once pickable in a certain laning/strategy meta-game won't automatically be pickable again, even if the laning/strategy meta-game is the same as before. I also agree that we shouldn't remake heroes just to fit them into the current meta-game, but we should leave them a place to fit in. Visage is not picked anymore since the shift away from trilanes, but if the game shifts back to trilanes, Visage will again be viable. Therefore, Visage has a place in the game and is pickable. And yes, utility isn't really about the hero, it's about the hero in the game. I think IceFrog's intention is to balance meta-games out. In the perfect DotA, all laning options, all strategies would be equally viable, so that teams can use any of them to their advantage. But that's insanely hard, if not impossible, to fulfil. |
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#6 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 953
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#8 | ||
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Take my example (4.5) Ursa Warrior: He can jungle decently, but that's it. And even at the jungle, he's fairly counterable, although he needs quite some levels and farm to be effective. Therefore, he isn't viable, no matter how the meta-game changes, unless certain new items/heroes are introduce that exactly complement his needs (which is highly unlikely). And that's where I want to get at. By the way, you can't have no meta-gam in DotA, because there always will be strategies, actions used in the game which transcend a prescribed ruleset. Thx, fixed ^^ |
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#9 | |
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This is so ... what's greater than legendary?
GJ man, epic title ![]() EDIT: Still not read through but gonna do
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A mystery:
What does not fit in this line?
Visit my Ezalor in PubGames Guide. Just click → here ← |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,734
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I like this. I like it a lot lol. Possibly, finally, an omnipotent go-to guide for hero making? (Well, it references a lot of other guides but meh)
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Please check out my suggestions; especially if I checked yours
![]() Originality: What is it? Why do I need it? How do I make something original? BB Codes: The guide |
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#11 |
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Pretty cool! There's a lot of good thoughts here. Honestly though, the people who need the most help with this stuff probably ain't gonna be arsed to read this through. It's a fun read for people who are into this stuff, though
![]() How I'd do it is break good hero design into 3 parts: Freshness, Healthiness, and Fun Freshness is originality and creativity. What does it add to the game, in terms of both specific skill mechanics (targeting types, skill effects, strategic use) and overall game influence? Healthiness is the quality that makes a hero good for the game. If a hero makes the game worse, that is bad. The perfect hero is pretty easy to understand and at the same time very difficult to master. It should reward good play. Players should be able to play against it, as well. With a healthy hero, player input is the most important determinant of success. Fun is just fun. Hopefully with the previous two concepts fulfilled, fun is the product. There's not a whole lot to say here, but fun is what we're after in the end; fun within the context of a competitive and playable game is what we want. These are the 3 things to be sought after, and as far as I'm concerned, if a hero has these qualities it's a good design no matter how it gets there. Skill synergy and things like it are means to an end, but I think where people get the most mixed up is when they mix that up and see them as the goal. Fun, healthy, creative hero with no obvious skill synergy > boring, unoriginal, unhealthy hero with oodles of skill synergy. That's a paradigm shift that one needs to make before producing good hero ideas, imo. That said, a hero with a central concept is a fantastic quality. Skills need not be so tightly bound to it, though. This topic always gets me blabbering on, lol. Anyway good job here, I liked it
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#12 |
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This was the sort of guide that i was going to expand my own into but never got around to =P I've only skimmed through most of it at the moment and its looking good but i'll try come back and look through each section in detail.
BTW "A leap is a dedicate effect" Think you meant delicate here. |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Lovely guide. It's very informative and really well structured.
I surely like the summary. It's everything in a nutshell (obviously) in a good way. I mean I could read that and be done with everything. I absolutely like that you touched on coherence and fluency. It is something that most people forget when suggesting. Sure you have an awesome wtf idea, but without coherence and fluency, the hero will still prove worthless, and that awesome idea will be put to waste. The role part is quite helpful as well. You can't really make an hero, or even an ability without a role in mind. I have a few qualms here and there, but they might just be a matter of opinion, and we can't be too nitpicky with such a great guide. It's also not boring to say the least. Here are some points I'd love to add. I don't know if it necessarily fits into the guide but just some points. 1) Overdone skills - some skills tend to be overdone ------->Overdone due to the amount of effects - some abilities just have too many effects. This is subjective though there is no real standard to know whether an ability has too many effects but when it starts to get confusing, it's definitely bad. DON'T PACK 9823 POSSIBLE SKILLS INTO ONE. ------->Overdone due to amount of subskills - and yes, I had to say this. Recently, after browsing through the forums, I've noticed a lot of ideas using subskills, but the downside is, the subskills are barely related-- they don't stem from the same thing, use the same thing (aside from mana) nor do they manipulate the same thing. As a rule, I'd like to think that a subskill should support the main skill, or constitute it, meaning, the main skill and all subskill should somehow be strongly related. DON'T MAKE SUBSKILLS AN EXCUSE TO INCLUDE 12323 SKILLS IN YOUR HERO. 2) A question of coherence and fluency I've also seen a lot of heroes recently that tries to do this whole mode thing, or this whole conditional thing, and most of the time, they just do not add up together. It's really hard to explain, but it's probably similar to "overdone due to amount of subskills" up there. I really hate it when people do obnoxious things just to include 1324 amount of skills to they skill pool. Seriously, make things atomic, and focused for each ability, so that it doesn't feel like a big heap of confusing junk. 3) A note on originality: SCAMPER, it's hard to come up with something really really unique right now, especially since we already have around 400+ skills in game, but my tip is to scamper in a trial and error manner. S = Substitute C = Combine A = Adapt M = Magnify P = Put to Other Uses E = Eliminate (or Minify) R = Rearrange (or Reverse) Try each one (or more than one if you will) and see how it feels. If the ability feels unique AND fluent AND coherent, it must be good. 4) Concepts and numbers go hand in hand SOMETIMES. For example, you could say that a blink no matter what it is still just a blink and it is difficult to make that unique, but imagine a 0 cooldown Blink (ROFL-Spirit anyone?) and now you have a new unique ability, just need to balance that out a little. 5) Lastly, sometimes, it's just in the description. Something feels wrong? Try rephrasing it first. IMO, A GOOD HERO NEEDS GOOD DESCRIPTIONS. I hate to be a grammar nazi, or a non-English speaker hater or anything but PRESENTATION MATTERS (not exactly visually but that helps too). ======================================== Sorry for ranting and all! Thanks for the quote. Great USEFUL guide.
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#14 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Argentina
Posts: 1,734
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Nice guide mate! It's very handy and one can see the effort you put in it. Also gratz on your 5.000+ Posts!
![]() Cheers~
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#15 |
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Everytime I need ideas I can just come to any of your guides and everything just hits me. Awesome job JJ
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#16 | |||||||
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Which is why DotA owns LoL (in DotA you can become Beyond Godlike, in LoL only Legendary) ![]() Quote:
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Anyway, for newcomers, I would rather propose NoThlnG's or TL-Flames' guide ^^ While I agree with your three points Freshness, Healthiness and Fun - I definitely can't think of a good hero without these aspects - these aspects don't describe what I intend to explain. With these terms, you can pinpoint aspects that every hero that is well designed has. What I want to make clear, though, is rather how a hero is structured - the basement (skills), the building (interaction of skills resulting in a concept) and the superstructure (interaction of the hero in the game). I've added your points into my explanation of these structures, although in other words. Freshness is the uniqueness found in the skills and the concept. Healthiness is the workout found in the skills and the utility. Fun is only scarcely mentionned, but Imo results automatically from a good freshness/uniqueness and healthiness/workout. Quote:
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If a skill has so many effects and is that complicated, it runs into danger of having no clear and coherent concept. But even if it has a clear concept, the workout might be overly complex and impractical. 3) That's great, but Imo you should rather post this in doomed2die's Guide on Originality, because this explains pretty well how you can make an original skill. In this guide, I don't really want to do this, it's more a theoretical approach on when a skill is unique. And as it is made clear in the example, it's not necessarily a unique effect that makes a skill unique. It's the way the skill is used, and for this, there are still so many unique options left, despite the massive amount of in-game skills in DotA. Edit: I posted it there ![]() 4) True, that's basically what I explained. The usage of the skill decides whether the skill is unique or not. If a number changes the usage of a skill (e.g. if you change the Blink Range from 1200 to 400 and the CD from 6 to 2), then the usage will already be pretty different. 5) Yeah, but the description is a formality, it doesn't change the hero at all. It only changes the representation of the hero. Since this is an analysis on what a hero needs - not specifically a hero suggestion - I don't really want to add such things to the guide. Furthermore, I haven't treated visual things at all, because I intend to talk about the purely gameplay aspects of a hero. Quote:
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#17 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Haha, I guess I got carried away. Well, honestly, those probably are my rants on recent suggestions that I have seen.
) sorry 'bout that
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#18 |
Member
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Chad stated great points regarding overdone skills. It seems to me that almost every hero in the the Hero Ideas section comes with sub-abilities, and some even have 2 or more sub-abilities! I understand that the suggestions have very little chance of getting into the actual game and most people suggest for fun, but when you consider that if the majority of the ideas suggested are actually as close to the actual game as possible, IceFrog might actually pay attention due to the overall improved quality of the suggestions? At least he will not go "WTF SO MANY EFFECTS? HOW AM I GOING TO CODE THIS??" whenever he sees a suggestion.
Just look at some of the latest heroes: Grand Magus Sub-skill in Telekinesis, but just a simple effect. One might argue that Spell Steal gives Grand Magus a 2nd sub-skill, but the ultimate does nothing except getting a working spell to replace it. No special effects whatsoever. Phoenix Fire Spirits and Sun Ray each has a sub-ability, one is to target, one is to move. Target and move are both simple effects, yes? Tuskarr No sub-abilities. Wisp Expand and shrink Spirits AoE (no additional effects, just moving the effects from the main skill Spirit). Also has a sub-ability to break Tether (spell canceling, no additional effect). Gyrocopter No sub-abilities. Disruptor No sub-abilities. Shadow Demon No sub-abilities. Murloc No sub-abilities. Ancient Apparition Just a sub-ability to target where Ice Blast hits. (targeting, no additional effect) So from these new heroes, we can see that most have NO sub-abilities (to keep it simple), and even if there is a sub-ability, it has NO additional effect other than targeting/moving/canceling. Meaning sub-ability has no extra slow, or extra stun, whatever. What I don't understand is that if people can spend the time and effort of thinking ZOMG extra effects into their suggestions, how hard can it be to NOT overdo a skill? It's simply doing less, but making it fitting to the actual game. That, I believe, is how the suggestions can be improved overall. The second thing I'd like to highlight on is Originality. I'd say that everyone defines originality differently, but one thing we can be sure of, is that even the new heroes are not 100% original if one wants to nit-pick. I can argue that Thunder Strike is just a nuke divided into 3 pulses or that Glimpse is just a reversed X-Marks the Spot. How about Relocate being an improved Teleport or Demonic Purge is simply old Purge with damage?? Therefore we can conclude that originality is not about nit-picking how an ability is a tweaked version of an existing ability, because you can't escape from things that are already in the game! It's about rearranging the mechanics from existing abilities and making a new ability from there. Unless if someone suggests an ability called Shadow Bolt which is exactly the same as Storm Bolt with a different icon, description and projectile, then we can say it's not original at all. So it's important not to focus on where the ability steals concept from, but how has it changed from the existing ability, and how does it fit into the game and the hero? |
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#19 |
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Following this trail of discussion, I also agree that overdone heroes are the most common mistakes that we see on the hero forums. This is not necessarily their fault, it comes from reviewers as well who shoot down skills that they deem unoriginal since they're not looking at the skill as part of a whole. Instead, they're throwing a blanket over the rest of the skill-set and comparing a single skill to an existing skill. With such a diverse hero pool, avoiding similarities is almost impossible (especially considering engine limitations).
This leads to newer hero creators "overloading" their heroes, essentially covering all bases and leaving no weaknesses. I don't think I've seen a good transformation/spellbook concept on these forums because of this tendency to overload. We're also starting to hit the other end of the spectrum where people come up with cool concepts that are just impractical to use in game (funnily enough, tends to happen to transformation/spellbook heroes most often as well). |
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#20 |
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He has a sub ability for his Shadow Poison (Release).
Gonna read this if I have enough time for it. It is quiet long, but the replies are all very positive.
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