[REMAKE] A Troll remake to end all Troll remakes

[Heelz]

Well, here we go again. Another "Troll needs a remake" post. I'll try not to rant too much about why Troll needs one, save for the part after this intro. Try to stick around til the end, there's a lot of neat animations!

Problem (warning, long):

While IceFrog has recently given Troll some attention after months and months of neglect, the fact still stands that Troll is a very weak and ineffective hero. The new skill(s) definitely made him better than previous versions, but that honestly is not saying much. Even worse (for Troll), many heroes who were considered just as bad as him received much more substantial buffs, leaving poor Troll behind.

The simple fact is: Troll is neither competitive nor pub material. Most other heroes are one, the other, or both. In Troll's case, you're better off picking another hero no matter what level of play you're in. And yes, I repeat, Troll is NOT a pub stomper. If he is, he's a very bad one. A lot of people on this forum like to defend bad heroes by saying "They're good for pubs, they don't need a buff in comp. DO NOT TOUCH". I for one, don't agree with that argument even if the hero is decent in pubs. I think every hero should at least be a situational pick in a competitive game. But I digress, he is not a pub stomper. A real pub stomper, at least in this version, is Spiritbreaker. He is a very hard hero to counter with a disorganized team. And if he catches you alone, good luck. Troll is not a pubstomper. What kind of pubstomper needs 40 minutes of farm before he can start stomping? You'll lose to the other team's pubstomper before that happens.

As far as carrying, Troll has the least to offer of any other carry in the game. He has very little survivability due to lack of an escape mechanism. Unless he can retreat to a tower or an ally, his only choice is to fight to the death. Since he has very little defense in a lane, a warded jungle is Troll's biggest nightmare.

Troll's problem is that he lacks so many of the things that make other heroes great. Escape mechanism, reliable damage, survivability, nukes, disables, etc. Melee Whirling Axes helped him a little bit in the nuke department, but it doesn't make up for his shortcomings.

Yes, he has a lot of potential if he can get farmed, but that means squat when the other team has a carry who is also farming AND being useful to the team at the same time. Other heroes can farm faster and safer than Troll. Nevermore rapes creep waves with Raze. Medusa uses Snake both for farming and lane control and can survive ganks with Mana Shield and Gaze. PA has Blur to alert her of ganks and she can even use Blink Strike defensively. Other heroes simply don't need as much farm before they can start being useful. Let's look at SB again. Once he has Mask of Madness, he has the ability to kill many heroes in 5 seconds before they can even retaliate. And that can be as early as level 7.

Honestly, I can go on and on about how Troll sucks, but I want to get on with the remake.

tl;dr - Troll lacks too much as a hero, even after buffs. He needs a redesign, much like TB received.


Goal:

The goal of this remake is to redesign Troll while keeping the things that make him unique. Right now, he just doesn't seem like a complete hero. The biggest problem to me is the pointlessness of his ranged form. Troll is unique in that he has the ability to freely change between melee and range (moreso than Syllabear), but the fact that he spends 90% of his time in melee form takes away from that uniqueness.

These are the main points to my remake:

• Make form switching a much bigger part of Troll's gameplay
• Give each form distinct playstyles and abilities
• Give Troll access to the skill types that make other heroes viable (e.g. disables, escape mechanisms, initiation) without making him overpowered

The problem with Troll is not that he can't deal a lot of damage. A Troll who is able to deliver his DPS is indeed scary. Therein lies the problem: Troll has a much harder time delivering that damage than any other carry. If you look at other melee carries, you'll see that that most of them have ways to get into range quickly so that they can start DPSing.

PA, AM, Void, SB, etc. have teleportation skills
Slardar, Lycan, Spectre have skills that boost their speed and are also tanky

Other heroes have abilities that indirectly allow them to fight in melee, such as BS, who can Rupture a target to discourage kiting and then silence them to prevent retaliation.

Apart from Troll, Ursa is the only other carry who must physically run up to his target to deal damage without any sort of speed boost. His advantage, however, is his tankiness and that his DPS is concentrated into a very short period. Ursa also benefits greatly from Dagger to negate his main weakness.

Troll is relatively squishy, having no defensive skills apart from Whirling Axes against physical damage. Combined with his necessity to fight in melee (or else do pitiful damage at range), Troll is ineffective at doing his one job: attacking.

My remake attempts to remedy Troll's dismal situation. But the first thing I had to do was get rid of Bash.

No Bash?! WTF:

Hey now, before you get out your pitchforks, let me explain myself. Many people think Bash is what Troll makes Troll Troll. Well, in my opinion, Bash is the reason Troll is so terrible.

Bash is strong, I won't argue with that. But guess which other heroes have Bash? That's right, Void and Slardar, who are much better bashers, nay, heroes than Troll. You'll notice that, unlike Troll, those heroes aren't completely focused on permabashing, yet they have a much better time carrying. Hell, even Cranium Basher makes other heroes better bashers. Troll lacks so much because his ridiculously high attack speed combined with Bash makes him a nightmare to balance. It's difficult to justify buffing a hero who can potentially keep a hero permanently stunned. *cough* SB *cough*

Since Bash is not unique to Troll and may very well be the root of his problems, I've decided to do away with it in favor of more diverse effects. If you still think Troll needs Bash after reading the rest of my remake, please share your thoughts.

Now, without further adieu...

Jah'rakal, the Troll Warlord

Stats:

Strength: 17 + 2 (down from 2.2)
Agility: 21 + 3 (up from 2.75)
Intelligence: 13 + 1 (no change)


Change Form - toggle
Jah'rakal's battle mastery allows him to use his axes to fight at melee and at range. His skills have different effects depending on his battle form.

• Available from level 1
• Jah'rakal's health, armor, movement, damage, and base attack time are the same in both melee and ranged forms
• Instant transformation time, zero cooldown
• Melee and ranged versions of skills share the same cooldown

Whirling Axes - active
Jah'rakal throws a flurry of axes to debilitate his enemies.

Ranged form: Slows enemies' movement by 40% in a cone shape in front of Jah'rakal.

Melee form: Causes enemies to miss 60% of their attacks in an area around Jah'rakal.

Level 1 - 100 damage, 3 second slow/miss
Level 2 - 150 damage, 4 second slow/miss
Level 3 - 200 damage, 5 second slow/miss
Level 4 - 250 damage, 6 second slow/miss

Mana cost: 75
Cooldown: 12

• Damage: magical
• Can hit targets 700 units away in ranged form
• 450 AoE in melee form

Primal Leap - active
Jah'rakal delivers a mighty blow while leaping into or out of combat.

Ranged form: Stuns a target in melee while leaping away.

Melee form: Leaps into a target and slows its movement by 75%.

Level 1 - 1 second stun/slow
Level 2 - 1.5 second stun/slow
Level 3 - 2 second stun/slow
Level 4 - 2.5 second stun/slow

Mana cost: 75
Cooldown: 24/20/16/12

• 600 cast range in melee form, 125 range in ranged form
• Leaps 500 units away from target in ranged form

Savage Assault - passive
Jah'rakal gains a greater understanding of his prey's defenses with each blow. Each continous strike against a target increases his attack speed by 10% and causes an effect depending on his form.

Ranged form: Decreases armor by 1 per strike for 4 seconds.

Melee form: Slows movement speed by 5% per strike for 3 seconds.

Level 1 - maximum of 20 IAS, -2 armor, 10% slow
Level 2 - maximum of 40 IAS, -4 armor, 20% slow
Level 3 - maximum of 60 IAS, -6 armor, 30% slow
Level 4 - maximum of 80 IAS, -8 armor, 40% slow

• Hit count is preserved when changing forms
• Changing targets resets bonuses

Berserker Rage - passive
Jah'rakal awakens his warrior spirit each time he casts a spell, granting him a temporary combat boon. Gives 3 seconds of magic immunity and increased attack speed.

Level 1 - 50 IAS
Level 2 - 100 IAS
Level 3 - 150 IAS

• Switching forms does not trigger this skill

In Depth:
The new Troll Warlord is centered around being a versatile damage dealer. He can choose to fight in melee or at range and switch freely between the two. Indeed, it is encouraged to use both forms together in order to take advantage of all the effects.

Switching forms changes the effects of Troll Warlord's three basic skills. His Whirling Axes is a minor AoE nuke with a debuff. Primal Leap is a movement skill that can either close or create distance between the target. Savage Assault is a remake of Fervor that gives a different debuff depending on form. In ranged form, Troll has access to a slow, a stun (his only true disable), and armor reduction. In melee, he has two slows and a blind debuff. Through form switching, you can try different combinations of effects. You may even be able to keep both effects of Savage Assault by constantly switching!

With these abilities, the new Troll can keep up with the other carries. His Whirling Axes give him a nuke and the choice of a slow or anti-DPS. Primal Leap functions as an engagement skill and a snare in melee form, while in ranged form it is an escape mechanism and a disable. A melee Troll can even switch to ranged form to escape if he finds himself losing a fight.

Ranged and melee versions of Troll's two spells share a cooldown. Troll players will need to decide whether the slow or blind effect of Whirling Axes is more important. Likewise, a Troll player will have to choose whether to engage a target in melee or leap away and fight at range.

Troll's ultimate is his only skill that is the same in either form. Whenever he casts a spell, he gains a short burst of attack speed and magic immunity. This can be chained for a total of 6 seconds. It synergizes greatly with his skills, as it allows him to quickly rack up hits of Savage Assault and gives him more protection when engaging with Leap. Because of his unique ability to repeatedly become magic immune, Troll's strength was reduced slightly.

Skill Animations:
Whirling Axes:

Whirling Axes with Berserker Rage:

Primal Leap:

Primal Leap with Berserker Rage:

Thanks for taking the time to read my suggestion. Feedback is appreciated.

[Straight Flush]

No bash? Was not expecting that LOL

Actually this is pretty interesting although something is lacking. These mishmash of effects just don't feel right, and although I agree with the whole ranged-and-melee-should-be-used-evenly thing, there's something still missing.
All of these spells work well together, and I agree, Bash isn't really too great with Troll, but as I've said, something just feels out of place.
It may just be the lack of bash which I'm not used to (If it is, then there isn't too much wrong with your remake) but this spellset feels far too generic. You have an initiation and escaping tool, a slow and a damage amplifier, an anti-carry nuke, and a passive Rage (pretty much).
I feel as if this Troll doesn't focus in one area, like the current Troll, which is autoattacking. I like the direction this is going but right now T-Null

[Inconnue]

I must say, Im impressed.

I'd say T-null, but I do like to see this in action

also I would be cool if you interchange Savage Assault's form effect, instead of a range -armor make it melee -armor, and from Melee -ms to range -ms.


edit: I believe that almost every hero has an Achilles' heel, however your suggested Remake is too perfect, like he doesnt need anything more, like he can get any items he want, all of his item build are all "luxuries".

[canhden]

Nice. But everyone wants bash. . Anyway. T-up for leap. 3rd skill still can be replaced by bash if you want.
This is one of two best rmk suggestions I've seen recently, along with traxex's ulti rmk. simple yet unique.

[shreyuz]

flawed idea when seen as a whole

a) Giving troll a passive IAS boost is okay..But giving him a free 3 Hyperstones as passive is imbalanced. You will have to reduce that. The reason is that with basher, troll will now have even better 24X7 perma bash which will actually make him a monster (especially in pubs).

b) Even without a basher, 700 AOE 40% slow combined with a 2.5 second 75% slow, and 3 hyperstones.combined with a slow on each hit .
He needs exactly 0 items to pawn.

c) Not to forget that you have given him an almost passive spell immunity to go with a) and b)

Trying to fix all his problems will only create more. There is no balance here.

SUGGESTION
------------
a) Remove 3 sec spell immunity.(Rangeform...Axes...(3sec immunity..Axes last 5.25 secs)--> melee form --> Jump (3 sec immunity)..11.25 sec passed since axes..use melee axes again for immunity. When timed well..he is pretty much spell immune for 9/11.25 seconds =80% of the battle. With that IAS burst and life steal, he is uncouchable

b) If you are making the IAS passive, reduce the value (50-75-100 seems a little better, but 25-50-75 may actually be the way to go)
c)Remove savage assault. The spell itself isnt needed when seen with your other spells. It creates too much imbalance.
d) Re-include Form changing as a spell. Perhaps give him some melee HP bonuses if you feel he isnt tanky enough to compensate

In the end you will have a troll with form changing ability ,75 IAS passive ultimate, whirling axes, and primal leap

Hope i helped

[wolfox666]

T-UP

i LOVE it, troll is my favorite hero, and i like the idea of mixing the styles of combat.

to the ppl that think "no bash troll? SUX"

CB or MKB, or BOTH! make a cool bash you know ?

and with the passive ultimate, troll will attack more than ever, make these itens more effective.

about the ''every item is good to him", this is relative, desolator will be a good item to stack with the 3rd skill, but i prefer 1000 times, dominator, to ubber lifesteal, Bfury will be no more a option, also vladmir, now kelens will be a GREAT item for hunts, or escaping with the 2nd skill, ptreads isn't more a good option, Phase or TPbots is more effective.

i already do troll based on dmg to try to kill some people with ulti, but this RMK is amazing.


i REALLY want this in 6.73 *-*

T-UP again


PS: guys vote for the concept! not for the numbers, number always can ber nerf

pS2: reading the number above, the spell immunity is really too imba, what about make tha savage into the berserk, tweak the numbers and remove the armor and slow debuffs, and create some buff of MS to chasing

[Nanaya Shiki]

Okay, your idea about removing Bash is reasonable, but somehow a Troll that can jump into everybody is just really odd. He is not a kangaroo. Slark and PotM can do it already.
Your ultimate seems so nice, but 3s immune to magic is just too powerful. With this, he can dodge all spells, never need BKB, and people will rage quit since casting animation of Troll is very short.

[ImboredxD]

Really good suggestion, but there's way too many disables. There's a stun, 2 slows, 1 blind, 1 that reduces armor like a desolator, and an ulti that gives you a lot of AS and magic immunity. I'm assuming you want him to be played as a carry still, but there's so many disables available for him in this remake that even a support doesn't have that many.

[gilvert]

Me liek!

BTW Change Form doesn't activate ult, right?

Also IMO some int buffs ._.

[Roger Black]

wtf is this shit...fucking imba..he just needs a boot to pwn...t-down

[AbyssPetra]

I know its nothing but the -armor duration is op 4 seconds should be enough for a high attack speed hero.

[God of Death]

Do not give the transform skill from level 1. Give it when a skill is learned [or when the ultimate is learned... and rename the ultimate Battle Mastery].

E: Perhaps change the magic immunity to 3 seconds of high bash chance. I really don't want to see 12 seconds of magic immune troll.

[Nevfigalo]

Nothing. It's what I like more in presented troll than current version.
Magic immunity, leaps, disables on the every hero... meh.

@up
Melee and range skills share cooldown... it is about of 6 seconds of magic immunity.

[Super_Duflair]

Actually, only the leap part is really worth the change IMO.

1. I don't like the native skill for Change form
2. I'd like to see Whirling Axes replaced by your leap actually
3. Original passive is fine, don't change it
4. Original ultimate is fine, don't change it

What I'd like to see is :

1st skill : a changing form, that add :

either the bash in melee form
either the -armor ability in ranged form

2st skill : your leap

3rd and 4th unchanged.

Keep on the good work !

[CryingOut]

yes ! t-up on all but passive ultimate , 3 free hyperstone is just too imba ..

[Heelz]

Originally Posted by shreyuz

flawed idea when seen as a whole

a) Giving troll a passive IAS boost is okay..But giving him a free 3 Hyperstones as passive is imbalanced. You will have to reduce that. The reason is that with basher, troll will now have even better 24X7 perma bash which will actually make him a monster (especially in pubs).

Originally Posted by CryingOut

yes ! t-up on all but passive ultimate , 3 free hyperstone is just too imba ..

Thanks for your feedback, but how is 3 seconds of IAS equivalent to "free 3 Hyperstones"? At most, he can keep his ultimate up 6 seconds, and that requires using both spells exactly 3 seconds apart from each other. After that, he can only rely on Savage Assault for attack speed until his cooldowns are over.

As for being able to combine it with BKB and having 11 seconds of spell immunity, Troll isn't a tanky hero. The new Troll's health is comparable to Drow and Shadow Fiend, and we know how squishy they are. Unfortunately, Troll doesn't get a ridiculous +damage like Drow or the ability to use 3 AoE nukes like SF. So he needs something to compensate. By virtue, Troll is a fighter who doesn't kill outright, but gains momentum as he continues to fight. He needs to be able to survive the first few seconds of battle in order to build up speed.

Originally Posted by ImboredxD

Really good suggestion, but there's way too many disables. There's a stun, 2 slows, 1 blind, 1 that reduces armor like a desolator, and an ulti that gives you a lot of AS and magic immunity. I'm assuming you want him to be played as a carry still, but there's so many disables available for him in this remake that even a support doesn't have that many.

He might have access to all those, but he can never use all of them at once. The melee and ranged versions of each spell are mutually exclusive. Let's take a look:

Whirling Axes (R) - AoE slow
Whirling Axes (M) - AoE blind
Primal Leap (R) - melee stun
Primal Leap (M) - ranged slow

There are four possible ways to combine these spells. RR, RM, MR, and MM. And remember, his stun is primarily a defensive skill, having melee range and forcing you away from the target. Savage Assault can technically be combined with constant form switching giving you a maximum of 4 effects, but chances are you'll be in one form more often in a fight.

In melee, you are much harder to get away from due to having access to two slows, one of which is passive. While in range, you're safer but easier to avoid. An expert Troll player would know when best to switch between forms.

Originally Posted by AbyssPetra

I know its nothing but the -armor duration is op 4 seconds should be enough for a high attack speed hero.

Done and done! Any other thoughts?

[Heelz]

Oh and I just want to make it clear: Switching between range and melee is not considered a spell, so it doesn't trigger his ultimate.

As for people saying he wouldn't need any items to own, I think you're overestimating things.

New Troll has a strength of 17+2. Same as SA, similar to Drow's 17+1.9 and Nevermore's 15+2. These heroes are very fragile when focused. They tend to die within one disable (early-mid game). Just because he can become spell immune doesn't mean he's unkillable. It's very obvious when he doesn't have his ultimate up and that gives enemies a window of opportunity to focus him.

That said, he's still a carry and as such, is comparably weaker early game than other heroes. His strongest nuke is only 250 damage, his damage per attack isn't very high, and he is level dependent. Some of these comments seem to imply that Troll starts the game with all his skills leveled. Or that he can instakill anyone at level 6. Drow is much scarier at level 6 than Troll, maybe even at 11.

[CryingOut]

ah sorry i didnt read the description

but sorry , still t-down for the ulti

[Unnamed_]

A Troll remake to end all Troll remakes

It's nowhere near that.

First skill - you made this skill unuseable in earlier levels. I am not going to go melee if I receive no bonuses. It doesn't work that way because melee is much, much weaker than ranged. The only thing making people go melee right now is the imba Bash. And you removed that.
Second skill - Slark much? I don't see why this is needed, or how it fits Troll Warlord.
Third skill - You gave the better bonus(-Armor per hit) to the already better form? How is that balancing between the forms? Even if you slow in ranged form, it takes 8 hits to get 40% slow.
Ultimate - you have 2 spells with a cooldown of 12. And you basically nerfed the skill because global +AS is much better than this.

[canhden]

After reconsider it, I think you should:
- Keep bash as current change form.
- Keep current Whirling Axes
- Make Leap become ulti.
- Remove one passive skills.
- Balance skills out. Bash + Leap are freaking scary.
IF bash has to be removed, there should be another bonus on melee form as compensation.