Developer's Blog
Register Low Fi Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-01-2011, 05:44 AM   #1
bloodchow
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 805
bloodchow is offline

Default every dota 2 player should have equal win rate?


every dota player should stay close to 50% win/lose rate as much as possible but their rating is maintained based on their level

lets say :

player A is a good dota player but his win rate is 55% and his actual rating is around 1700+

player B is less skilled than player A but his win rate is 44% and his actual rating is around 1300+

so we need player A to team with less skilled players in order to lose some games to maintain to 50% win rate while staying around 1700 rating

player B should be put with better players to maintain 50% win rate while staying around 1300 rating

so conclusion is player A is harder to win games while player B is easier to win games to maintain 50% win/lose rate
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 05:48 AM   #2
Mizure
Member
 
Mizure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,829
Blog Entries: 2
Mizure is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodchow View Post
every dota player should stay close to 50% win/lose rate as much as possible but their rating is maintained based on their level

lets say :

player A is a good dota player but his win rate is 55% and his actual rating is around 1700+

player B is less skilled than player A but his win rate is 44% and his actual rating is around 1300+

so we need player A to team with less skilled players in order to lose some games to maintain to 50% win rate while staying around 1700 rating

player B should be put with better players to maintain 50% win rate while staying around 1300 rating

so conclusion is player A is harder to win games while player B is easier to win games to maintain 50% win/lose rate
iam 1989.

but who could possible be 1300/1700 ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 05:51 AM   #3
NoThlnG
Forum Staff
 
NoThlnG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 15,201
Blog Entries: 8
Awesome 
NoThlnG is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Well, if every game you have 50% to win or lose it means both team is balanced which means the game is fun.

So, where's the problem here?
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 05:56 AM   #4
Simon493
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 23
Simon493 is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Relative rating systems can really only be asymptotically efficient. You can design something where you converge in probability on a 50% win rate but very high/very low skill people will always take longer to get there.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 06:01 AM   #5
JippyTheLion
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 19
JippyTheLion is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

It seems more complicated than that. In the situation you described, it seems like the actual skill of player B could be lower than 1300. In this case, it sounds like that player ended up with too high of a rating, and ended up playing a number of teams that were better an ended up with a win rate below 50%. Eventually he will lose enough games and enough rating to match him up with people that he can consistently win against, and the rating would go up again. Eventually this oscillation above and below 50% win rate would settle to 50%, assuming the skill of the player stays constant. The opposite is also true for player A.

A logical way for the matchmaking system to work would be to continue matching players based on the matchmaking, without considering the win rates. Eventually, the players would gain or lose enough points to put them at a level where they maintain a 50% win rate.

Of course, Dota is also a team game, which makes all of the matchmaking much more difficult to do. A team that just doesn't work well together could cause some unjust loses, and vice-versa.

In addition to all of this, there will also be no way to make players at very high or very low rankings have a 50% win rate. There is simply no way to create even teams for those players at the level they are at.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 06:15 AM   #6
Simon493
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 23
Simon493 is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by JippyTheLion View Post

A logical way for the matchmaking system to work would be to continue matching players based on the matchmaking, without considering the win rates. Eventually, the players would gain or lose enough points to put them at a level where they maintain a 50% win rate.
You have the same problem really. When someone loses you really only gain the information that their team were worse than whoever they played against and given the relatively high variance in performance given a certain skill level 1 win or loss doesn't actually contain that much useful information about a players skill level. Assuming skill is normally distributed(or any really) as you move away from the mean it will take longer and longer for people to hit their "true" rating.

But rating systems like in HON do have the advantage that you can have unequally skilled teams and weight points won/lost accordingly. Either way there is no way to get around the fact they are only asymptotically efficient.

You can do things like have points scale faster when you first start playing, have consistently high kdr or many wins in a row but your sort of trading off the efficiency with the speed of convergence. (SC2 uses a similar system with their placement system and use your 5 games to do a rough estimate of your skill level. But estimating skill is FAR FAR easier in a game like sc2 where its 1v1).
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 06:27 AM   #7
bloodchow
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 805
bloodchow is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

bump need more ideas from everyone
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 06:36 AM   #8
Simon493
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 23
Simon493 is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

I'm sure valve has professional statisticians to work on things like this. From what I've seen come out of their comments about steam sales I know they have at least one professional econometrician. If your personally interested in rating systems the elo would be the place to start Elo rating system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I havn't really read a huge amount on it and it is for 1v1 (chess) but again because of all the different things in dota2 that effect your chances of winning (namely the 4 other players) it would really only hold asymptotically and you wouldn't want to use as large of a "k" factor (rate at which ratings change) or have a variable k factor w.r.t something like games played or skill level.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 06:38 AM   #9
venze
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3
venze is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Sorry for off topic, but i have little problem in beta - my lvl doesnt grow up at all, but i have about 6 wins \ 1 lose. Is this because of friend gave me a gift-based invite or smth else? Thank ya
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 06:42 AM   #10
JippyTheLion
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 19
JippyTheLion is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon493 View Post
You have the same problem really. When someone loses you really only gain the information that their team were worse than whoever they played against and given the relatively high variance in performance given a certain skill level 1 win or loss doesn't actually contain that much useful information about a players skill level. Assuming skill is normally distributed(or any really) as you move away from the mean it will take longer and longer for people to hit their "true" rating.

But rating systems like in HON do have the advantage that you can have unequally skilled teams and weight points won/lost accordingly. Either way there is no way to get around the fact they are only asymptotically efficient.

You can do things like have points scale faster when you first start playing, have consistently high kdr or many wins in a row but your sort of trading off the efficiency with the speed of convergence. (SC2 uses a similar system with their placement system and use your 5 games to do a rough estimate of your skill level. But estimating skill is FAR FAR easier in a game like sc2 where its 1v1).
It seems that you've caught on that my main experience is in Starcraft 2, where team game balance is terrible and expected to be terrible =P
You are definitely correct that it is far easier to balance a 1v1 game, and even then it can take a frustratingly long time for the skill level to converge. Something important to note is that 5 games to place a new player is nowhere near enough. While a large portion of the community is placed correctly, there are still, many, many, players who end up in a much higher or lower league than they should be in.

It seems like no one has really figured out a good way to balance a 5v5 matchmaking system. I have not played HoN, and am not familiar with the system used there, but from what you describe maybe something like that would work. Adding additional stats into the pool of things considered would also probably help, but then you still might end up with some of the problems you see in Starcraft.

In general it seems like you know a lot more than I do on the subject. My expertise unfortunately only covers Starcraft 2.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 06:49 AM   #11
LEGEND OF DIV
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 504
LEGEND OF DIV is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodchow View Post
every dota player should stay close to 50% win/lose rate as much as possible but their rating is maintained based on their level

lets say :

player A is a good dota player but his win rate is 55% and his actual rating is around 1700+

player B is less skilled than player A but his win rate is 44% and his actual rating is around 1300+

so we need player A to team with less skilled players in order to lose some games to maintain to 50% win rate while staying around 1700 rating

player B should be put with better players to maintain 50% win rate while staying around 1300 rating

so conclusion is player A is harder to win games while player B is easier to win games to maintain 50% win/lose rate
ur correct in every working balance system like div-league alle players end up 50% winrate (this is forced)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 06:58 AM   #12
bloodchow
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 805
bloodchow is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGEND OF DIV View Post
ur correct in every working balance system like div-league alle players end up 50% winrate (this is forced)
better dota 2 implement this system, because i saw good hon player always have high rating but win rate is way more than 50%
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 07:04 AM   #13
Simon493
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 23
Simon493 is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Well your never going to get anything that is perfect off of 5 games, the sample size is just too low. Even someone completely horrible could win 5 in a row if they got lucky enough. There simply isn't enough information contained in the 5 games to judge a players skill.

The idea of a rating converging in probability is that as the number of games played increases to infinity your rating converges to a "true" rating. In this case it would in reality be a range because your skill level varies from game to game(don't play hon/dota high, trust me).

Now you can have ratings converge faster by using more information but it also makes them less accurate.

Take KDR for example.(Kill death ratio)

If we add it into our rating we will see people converge towards their true rating quicker. Think of it like this, whats more likely:

a very low skilled person to win 5 games

or

a very low skilled person to win 5 games AND get a very high KDR.

Obviously the first is far more plausible.

HOWEVER when we introduce KDR we introduce model misspecification. Presumably we define "skill" as the ability to win games. Now while KDR is likely highly correlated with "skill" (especially at the start before the rating system starts to separate high/low skill people) it doesn't necessarily hold for all people.

Consider two players who play support. The first steals kills from carries. The second sets up kills for the carries. Given the same "skill" level (ability to win games) the first will be rated higher if we include KDR in the ratings, despite being a worse player. Also it adds in a negative behavioral incentives (kill stealing/picking gankers/carries and so on).
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 07:06 AM   #14
bloodchow
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 805
bloodchow is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon493 View Post
Well your never going to get anything that is perfect off of 5 games, the sample size is just too low. Even someone completely horrible could win 5 in a row if they got lucky enough. There simply isn't enough information contained in the 5 games to judge a players skill.

The idea of a rating converging in probability is that as the number of games played increases to infinity your rating converges to a "true" rating. In this case it would in reality be a range because your skill level varies from game to game(don't play hon/dota high, trust me).

Now you can have ratings converge faster by using more information but it also makes them less accurate.

Take KDR for example.(Kill death ratio)

If we add it into our rating we will see people converge towards their true rating quicker. Think of it like this, whats more likely:

a very low skilled person to win 5 games

or

a very low skilled person to win 5 games AND get a very high KDR.

Obviously the first is far more plausible.

HOWEVER when we introduce KDR we introduce model misspecification. Presumably we define "skill" as the ability to win games. Now while KDR is likely highly correlated with "skill" (especially at the start before the rating system starts to separate high/low skill people) it doesn't necessarily hold for all people.

Consider two players who play support. The first steals kills from carries. The second sets up kills for the carries. Given the same "skill" level (ability to win games) the first will be rated higher, despite being a worse player. Also it adds in a negative behavioral incentives (kill stealing/picking gankers/carries and so on).
those supporters go 0-10 in dota 2 tournament on august means they are sucks?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 07:10 AM   #15
Simon493
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 23
Simon493 is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

No, quite the opposite really.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 07:11 AM   #16
benybc
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
benybc is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

i dont know if this is right
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 07:40 AM   #17
JippyTheLion
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 19
JippyTheLion is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon493 View Post
Well your never going to get anything that is perfect off of 5 games, the sample size is just too low. Even someone completely horrible could win 5 in a row if they got lucky enough. There simply isn't enough information contained in the 5 games to judge a players skill.

The idea of a rating converging in probability is that as the number of games played increases to infinity your rating converges to a "true" rating. In this case it would in reality be a range because your skill level varies from game to game(don't play hon/dota high, trust me).

Now you can have ratings converge faster by using more information but it also makes them less accurate.

Take KDR for example.(Kill death ratio)

If we add it into our rating we will see people converge towards their true rating quicker. Think of it like this, whats more likely:

a very low skilled person to win 5 games

or

a very low skilled person to win 5 games AND get a very high KDR.

Obviously the first is far more plausible.

HOWEVER when we introduce KDR we introduce model misspecification. Presumably we define "skill" as the ability to win games. Now while KDR is likely highly correlated with "skill" (especially at the start before the rating system starts to separate high/low skill people) it doesn't necessarily hold for all people.

Consider two players who play support. The first steals kills from carries. The second sets up kills for the carries. Given the same "skill" level (ability to win games) the first will be rated higher if we include KDR in the ratings, despite being a worse player. Also it adds in a negative behavioral incentives (kill stealing/picking gankers/carries and so on).
Ah, I hadn't even consider the possibility of encouraging KS-ing or other bad habits. Those are probably prevalent enough as it is.

With that in mind, you could define different benefits or bonuses based on the hero being played, but that seems like a very slippery slope to start down, and only gets more complicated as you expand it to more and more heros. Personally, I would rather have it take more time to converge than have the skill level converge quickly to an inaccurate value, but there might be room for a hybrid system of sorts. Use bonuses for the first few games to get a general guess, and then use a win/loss based system after that.

It seems that I've made a circle somewhere and gone right back to one of the ideas in your first post. Silly me. I should probably leave the speculating to those who know more about it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 07:44 AM   #18
Simon493
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 23
Simon493 is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGEND OF DIV View Post
ur correct in every working balance system like div-league alle players end up 50% winrate (this is forced)
You can't really force this without significantly reducing the efficiency of your rating system.

When you force a 50% win rate(you can't actually force a 50% but I'll be charitable and assume a roughly 50% win rate) you are essentially saying that peoples ratings change at very extreme rates or you have uneven games. Intuitively this makes sense as if someone keeps winning you need them to lose (face much harder opponents) to maintain a near 50% win rate.

The problem with this is that each win/loss doesn't actually contain that much information about a players skill. IE it is completely plausible for a player who is terrible to win his first 5 games just because he is lucky. To force a ~50% win rate you would need this persons "rating" to increase VERY VERY quickly as they win successive games and all the sudden you have these low-skill players in higher skilled games just by random chance.

There is no way to develop a PERFECT system that works for 100% of players 100% of the time. But a system like in hon has a ~50% win rate for ~95% of the players. Sure you get the outliers who have very high and very low win % as they move up or down to their true rating but that is a somewhat unavoidable problem.

You can use a few different things to reduce this but really there is no perfect way to do it and it will pretty much always be a problem. There is no way for the system to differentiate between a "1600"(slightly above average) player from a "1900"(very high skilled) player if they both start out with 10 wins and 0 losses. If you having something like a forced ~50% win rate people are going to be flying up and down the rating system as they go on streaks that are more or less luck based or you have force very uneven games (ie you get "lucky" and win too many in a row and get matched up against opponents with much higher skill levels).
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 07:51 AM   #19
Simon493
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 23
Simon493 is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by JippyTheLion View Post
Ah, I hadn't even consider the possibility of encouraging KS-ing or other bad habits. Those are probably prevalent enough as it is.

With that in mind, you could define different benefits or bonuses based on the hero being played, but that seems like a very slippery slope to start down, and only gets more complicated as you expand it to more and more heros. Personally, I would rather have it take more time to converge than have the skill level converge quickly to an inaccurate value, but there might be room for a hybrid system of sorts. Use bonuses for the first few games to get a general guess, and then use a win/loss based system after that.

It seems that I've made a circle somewhere and gone right back to one of the ideas in your first post. Silly me. I should probably leave the speculating to those who know more about it.
AFAIK that is actually what SC2 does (using bonuses for first couple of games) because I got placed in silver despite losing every single one of my placement matches But yeah that is probably one of the better ways to do it. KDR relative to team average as some sort of multiplicative bonus on rating gain/loss for first 10-20 games. If they wanted to they could use data from beta to construct a better system. Take a look at the first 10-20 games of every player and run regressions and see what separates high/medium/low skill players then have those as multiplicative bonuses for first x games. (But again we wouldn't want to include it in our long term estimate of skill because even though it might be highly correlated with true skill it likely doesn't necessarily hold for every player, like we saw with KDR)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 07:55 AM   #20
StudyMan
Member
 
StudyMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Paradise
Posts: 2,026
StudyMan is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

you are 1500 rating, if you play with people under your skill, you will win increasing ur stats.

if you are 1500 rating and you play with people above your skill you will lose.

if you play with people of the same skill, you are gonna win/lose equally, or else your rating will change into an area that you can't win/can't loose.

so ultimately, people with 1700 rating will get there, and people with 1300 rating will get there, and they will stay around that rating, so people will end up with 50% W/L eventually.

it's not the egg that laid the chicken op, it's the other way around.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 07:56 AM   #21
Clam
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,020
Clam is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

the only way it can be fairly done is on win/loss. any other way would skew the game (ie everyone would ks if it was kill/death)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 08:08 AM   #22
Simon493
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 23
Simon493 is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clam View Post
the only way it can be fairly done is on win/loss. any other way would skew the game (ie everyone would ks if it was kill/death)
More or less.

But just wait until a rating system is implemented fully/release. If its anything like HON 1/2 of threads made will be people crying about it. No one wants to be below average, but 50% of people have to.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 08:10 AM   #23
raithza
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20
raithza is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

that's why we have assists people... if someone ends a game at 2/8/20 it probably means they've been a boon to the team. if you want to keep it simple you can just say each assist counts as .5 of a kill... so the above example would count as a 12/8 K (which seems fair). Obviously with global stats available in regards to K:A ratio you can find the correct modifier to use.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 08:17 AM   #24
Simon493
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 23
Simon493 is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by raithza View Post
that's why we have assists people... if someone ends a game at 2/8/20 it probably means they've been a boon to the team. if you want to keep it simple you can just say each assist counts as .5 of a kill... so the above example would count as a 12/8 K (which seems fair). Obviously with global stats available in regards to K:A ratio you can find the correct modifier to use.
But you can't. You are assuming there exists a function that directly relates K:A: D to ability to win that is the exact same for every single person. Play a lot of heroes with AOE abilities? All the sudden your K:A: D goes through the roof. Skill? No. Run a lot trilanes? Up goes your assists. Does it relate to your ability to win? No.

You still have the incentive to kill steal (worth double assist) and drag out games against teams when you are winning (maximize K: D:A) and concede/lose early to minimize deaths.

Add stuff in to control for that and you just introduce more problems near endlessly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 08:18 AM   #25
Crossing
Member
 
Crossing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 988
Crossing is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

There are too much factor affecting the balance of teams apart from rating. The rating is a good measure but cannot measure:

Hero matchup
Computer and other peripherals
lag/spike
whether the player is drunk
etc
etc

Optimally, in the long run a player should have 50% win rate, but the fact is the better you are (compared with the whole D2 population), your win rate will be higher and it'll be really really hard to find a match for you in MM.

Also 3 friends might have not-so-good individual skills, but by partying together they raises their individual rating to higher than they actually should be.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 09:19 AM   #26
raithza
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20
raithza is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon493 View Post
But you can't. You are assuming there exists a function that directly relates K:A: D to ability to win that is the exact same for every single person. Play a lot of heroes with AOE abilities? All the sudden your K:A: D goes through the roof. Skill? No. Run a lot trilanes? Up goes your assists. Does it relate to your ability to win? No.

You still have the incentive to kill steal (worth double assist) and drag out games against teams when you are winning (maximize K: D:A) and concede/lose early to minimize deaths.

Add stuff in to control for that and you just introduce more problems near endlessly.
The point is not having a be-all end all determinant of skill, but rather a reliable set of sane metrics that can be applied to get a general idea of player skill. KA is just one factor that can (and should) be measured. the point isn't that, in one game, you might play zeus and get 50 assists, it'll average out over 100 games. If you use, in order of relative magnitude and weighted by difference in ELO, Win/Loss, game length, KA, you will get a good picture over time.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 09:27 AM   #27
Clam
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,020
Clam is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

If k/d is implemented into the matchmaking stats it will break the game. everyone will ks, its just a retarded idea because if you prefer supports you will be rated 'shit' and those who like carries will look better. win/loss is the ONLY fair way to do it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 09:29 AM   #28
MonolithE
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 19
MonolithE is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Edit.
  Reply With Quote
Last edited by MonolithE; 12-02-2011 at 07:48 PM.
Old 12-01-2011, 10:21 AM   #29
moon31f
Member
 
moon31f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Brasil
Posts: 1,731
moon31f is offline
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

Smurfing: it breaks the system
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 11:12 AM   #30
Redeemed A.I.
Member
 
Redeemed A.I.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Greece.Μακεδονία
Posts: 9,399
Redeemed A.I. is online now
Default Re: every dota 2 player should have equal win rate
Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

That's why dotaliscious fails so much.

It puts good players and bad players in the same team,ultimately ruining the overal gameplay experience.
__________________
Rebalance wex and exort to share traveling range while also making wex more useful!

Learn how to throw the best (humanly possible) chaos meteors here.
  Reply With Quote
Reply
  Defense of the Ancients DotA Chat


Forum Jump

Thread Tools