[Buff] Sange and Yasha

[Yago]

Certainly the item is a lot better now, what with its Orb Effect removed, that said, I think it needs buffed a bit. It is not as strong as Halberd + Manta combo.

Quite simply: Grants the user up to 16 charges which are gained every minute upon buying the item and half are lost upon death.

Each charge grants +1 Agility, +1 Strength, +5 attack speed, 1.5 damage and .5% movement speed.

Max charges would be up to 16 Agility, 16 Strength, 80 Attack speed, and 8% movement speed increase.

Total stats with maximum charges: 32 Agility, 32 Strength, 95 attack speed, 36 damage, and 20% movement speed increase.

The item is actually possibly worth keeping in your inventory over Halberd and Manta, though not always. It requires time to become powerful and it also greatly loses its effectiveness upon death.

This also helps turtling with carries like Mortred, since they can scale better by getting this fast, and maintain S&Y's effectiveness as the game goes on.

Provided you can get that pubnoob with 3 sets of boots to stop feeding long enough to build the item's power up!

[TuuumAZ]

Originally Posted by Yago

It is not as strong as Halberd + Manta combo.

Ever considered it's because Halberd + Manta is about 4,5k gold more expensive?

[Subotai]

Your suggestion is a bit interesting.

However with 16 charges it gives : 127 AS, and lots of others bonuses.
Once the item gives 32 str, it will be easy not to die.

I would be ok for a buff, but not this,
TD

[Yago]

Originally Posted by TuuumAZ

Ever considered it's because Halberd + Manta is about 4,5k gold more expensive?

Absolutely, but they are significantly better than the current S&Y.

Also, yes, it gives a ton of bonuses and is a really high tier item for a low price. Keep in mind, however, that you must go 16 minutes without dying to max it. In addition, games are currently shorter. You'd have to rush it and not die once to gain its full benefit. If you die, you lose almost all o fit, since you have relatively little time to wait around.

[WetYoshi_x3]

Nerf your buff, and it's actually pretty nice.

Also, Manta + Halbert is quite expensive,

[Yago]

It's a strong buff, yes. I know. And yeah, Halberd and Manta is quite expensive, but they also scale better late game. Even Manta outdoes S&Y later, for the most part. Relatively little reason to have S&Y. I might nerf it a bit. Still awaiting more feedback.

[Dr_JP]

General good idea, but charges gained through time passed isn't a good idea, because it'd tend to make its owners more feared about dying, which isn't S&Y, a ganking mid game item, purpose.

Because of Dota2, I'm a long time far from playdota.com forums, but I'm about to publish a general buff to make S&Y survive compared to new alternative paths for its components.

-16 agi

-16 str

- 16 dmg (from 12)

-16 IAS (from 15)

- 16 MS (from 12)


Justification:

- S&Y is a item for gankers, achievable at mid game, easy to build, offers poor DPS but lots of tankability and mobility;

- If you really wanna be mobile, S&Y should be the best option;

- +4% MS means, usually, +15 MS;

- Though Maim might look weak and unreliable, it must be interpreted along with self-MS bonus;

- Against a S&Y owner, any maimed enemy is slowed like 30%+16%, resulting in a relative 46% MS slow for 4 seconds, which becomes more reliable as IAS increases;

- Aesthetically more pleasent, symmetrical +16 bonuses.

Do you think that would be the most simple yet efficient way for S&Y having its place under the sun?

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Dr_JP

General good idea, but charges gained through time passed isn't a good idea, because it'd tend to make its owners more feared about dying, which isn't S&Y, a ganking mid game item, purpose.

Because of Dota2, I'm a long time far from playdota.com forums, but I'm about to publish a general buff to make S&Y survive compared to new alternative paths for its components.

Do you think that would be the most simple yet efficient way for S&Y having its place under the sun?

That's not bad, but I like my own better :P.

Complex is nice.

DotA's built upon complex, and recently there hasn't exactly been any Magic Missle level abilities. Point and Click seems to be on its way out, and so does orthodox play-styles. Variety is the spice of life, eh?

The time passed means that it needs to be rushed if chosen for its full potential. This encourages its mid-game use.


There are 3 possibilities:

You gain momentum, adapt a reasonable item for a better upgrade, like Manta or Halberd, or turtle and scale it up.

Should one be failing, they can upgrade.

Should one be stomping, then its all the more easy to stomp.

Should one be doing fine, but turtling hard, they can scale safely with a nice cheap easy to build item.


Thus it balances out. Its a complex balancing thing, but I think it'd work out great.

The charges aren't meant to be a thing you should pick it solely for. You pick it because you can hardly go wrong with it.

I know it being disassemble-able is not in the original post, (I don't think I added it) because I saw another thread for it and did not want to steal that thread. I would happily merge them, however, or add it in and give credit. I did not have time this morning.

I hope my ramblings make some sense. If you need me to clarify more I can.

[T7Boram]

Your buff is good for a turtle game.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by T7Boram

Your buff is good for a turtle game.

It's also good for gankers doing well.

[MassBalance]

Halbred+Manta is also two items that take up two item slots. You can't compare 1 item to 2 items at the same time. Its like saying buriza needs a buff because 3 crystalises are better.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by MassBalance

Halbred+Manta is also two items that take up two item slots. You can't compare 1 item to 2 items at the same time. Its like saying buriza needs a buff because 3 crystalises are better.

I'm referring to the fact that S&Y is two parts. It is usually purchased primarily for one of the two parts with the other being there to boost up the item's effectiveness.

If you need a slow, just get Halberd, it scales better.

Need speed, get Manta.

There really is less of a need for S&Y. You can usually survive with the upgrade of the part you want more, in fact, it's usually better that way.

[Monsterlord]

Comparing SnY to Manta/Halberd is retarded. Not only is the difference in cost extremely significant, the two don't overlap. A hero buying Manta has rarely has use for Halberd, a hero buying Halberd has rarely has use for Manta, and heroes buying SnY often prefer it over either of the other two.

The only thing SnY really needs is a minor boost to its non-stat bonuses to solidify the niche it holds over the other two. Dr_JP's suggestion is perfect.

[dumbass_2]

I think Yasha is an ok item (I wouldn't mind it giving +1% AS though), it's Sange that's not justifying it's cost.

Some simple buffs to the numbers would do, I agree. The +16 dmg buff sounds good but the biggest problem here is maim:"15% chance slow by 20% for 4 seconds". Not only is it unreliable, the effect - the 20% slow for 4 seconds - is relatively weak.

The item would also work great on Ursa (300 hp, dmg, slow) if the slow effect was more powerful.

I also think aesthetics shouldn't play a role in balancing and wouldn't touch the ms bonuses.

Another possible buff would be to simply increase the stats bonuses a bit (+18 or something).

[kidnguyen1412]

Nerf the number and it will be balance.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by kidnguyen1412

Nerf the number and it will be balance.

The numbers are actually quite balanced. You lose a ton of benefits if you die.

[JJE92]

Originally Posted by Yago

It is not as strong as Halberd + Manta combo.

Okay, first of all, one of them costs considerable more gold. Second of all, Halberd + Manta is an expensive late-game item combination. Sange and Yasha is rather bought when you need good effects soon and relatively cheap, it's a mid-game item.
These items have rather different usages, you cannot just compare them like this.

Your idea isn't bad, but I don't think it's needed and I don't think it's on the correct item. Sange and Yasha isn't a turtler item, it's an item that significantly boosts your mid-game, but rather falls off towards the later stages. This change doesn't fit to the concept of the item.

If Sange and Yasha needs anything, it's only slight buffs in its numbers, but overall the item is fine after the removal of the orb effect.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by JJE92

Okay, first of all, one of them costs considerable more gold. Second of all, Halberd + Manta is an expensive late-game item combination. Sange and Yasha is rather bought when you need good effects soon and relatively cheap, it's a mid-game item.
These items have rather different usages, you cannot just compare them like this.

Your idea isn't bad, but I don't think it's needed and I don't think it's on the correct item. Sange and Yasha isn't a turtler item, it's an item that significantly boosts your mid-game, but rather falls off towards the later stages. This change doesn't fit to the concept of the item.

If Sange and Yasha needs anything, it's only slight buffs in its numbers, but overall the item is fine after the removal of the orb effect.

I know the item combo is expensive. My point, however, is that S&Y has no real use on carries. And S&Y is usually gotten on Semi-Carries or carries that come online fast and can use it midgame. It ends up wasting their gold. If they wanted the effects of the two items they'd be far better off just saving for Halberd/Manta combo. Plus Why is HALF of an epic destined sword pair combo BETTER than the full epic matching destined sword pair combo? I just like the flavor. It isn't completely a turtle item. Honestly I think it's being a bit misinterpreted as one. You COULD use a turtle strategy, but you could also play like normal. It's meant to allow more versatility with the item. You really lose nothing, this is only a buff. If the item's useful now imagine when it'll actually be better to invest time and let your turtle carry turtle. As of now heroes like PA are useless because they do not come online and so some turtling item could help. But, the turtling item would also allow them to come online faster, though not overpoweringly so. The time scale really is quite balanced, games lasting 40 minutes would be wrecked if you get this at 20 min plus and die even once with it.

[Monsterlord]

My point, however, is that S&Y has no real use on carries. And S&Y is usually gotten on Semi-Carries or carries that come online fast and can use it midgame.

That's kind of the point. It's not meant to work on hard carries.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Monsterlord

That's kind of the point. It's not meant to work on hard carries.

It works great on most of them, amazingly so. It just isn't used because it's terrible for their later game. Therefore, they sacrifice a great mid game chance to actually do something besides farm.