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Old 02-01-2012, 10:44 AM   #1
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Default Invoker vs Sniper mid


So i'm a fairly new invoker player(20 games or something around that number) but i got the hang of it, i dominated my mid lane almost all the time, got a good grip on invoking spells on lvl 17+. But yesterday i did a dota 2 game vs this really sick sniper, because of his attack animation and last hitting skills i couldn't get shit for creeps so instead of going the usual quas/wex i went for exort so i could get some last hits. Because of his super ultra range and none of my teammates helping me gank him i got shit on so hard and sniper got farmed. Everytime i tried to go for some harass he's so far back behind his creeps cause of his range and i just felt so useless. So should i be winning this lane or not?
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:07 AM   #2
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Well, Sniper has an unfair advantage in mid as the ramps block vision of him. Happens a lot of public games and unless you get help, you're bound to get screwed.

Not your fault, take it easy.

Or you could go Exort and out-lasthit him.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:10 AM   #3
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Well, snipers are usually confident when they stay far behind their creeps that nothing can hurt them, prove them wrong and burn them with sunstrikes.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:12 AM   #4
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

You could harras him early on with Meteor, tornado etc.
Hes actually a pretty squishy hero , and maxd out Exort early game is no joke
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:13 AM   #5
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

u said that he stayed back, so its ur time to get the uphill advantage, that way he cant get any creeps, and voker can kill him easy, u need more practice dude!!!!!!!!!

sniper should be dead by lvl4 Max.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:14 AM   #6
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

well quas invoker has cold snap spam and enough regen to deal with his harrass
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:17 AM   #7
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by plzonlygame View Post
well quas invoker has cold snap spam and enough regen to deal with his harrass
Obviously i do get 1-2 lvl of quas so i can stay in lane, but i didn't really had success with cold snap, because of his range i only got 1 hit in it sometimes 2 if i get lucky. As i said i had no problems laning invoker against other heroes but that sniper really got to me, and it was my first time playin exort invo in the start so i guess i failed a bit there should've sunstriked him more often
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

2 Normal hits combined with Cold snap can easily take out 1/3 of a Sniper's hp. Not to mention your regen is superior to his. You might lose out a bit with last-hitting vs sniper, but at mid-game you're a beast going ganking killing shit while the sniper.. farms. If you outplay him mid-game, you don't really have to worry about the early game last hits that you lost to him.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:55 AM   #9
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

just walk into his side of the ramp and stand there,he cant win a 1x1 autoattack match in early levels and your cold snap will scare him away while you farm
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:53 PM   #10
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid



He is laning with sniper solo mid.
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:35 PM   #11
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Thank you gonna check purges video
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Honestly solo'ing an invoker as sniper is pretty easy, if you only take into account a 1v1, all you need to do vs a good invoker is have some form of regen, and stay back and last hit (can refill consumables using chicken). You should never actually die 1v1 with sniper, if you do your doing it wrong. Snipers real weakness comes from the fact that he has no escape mechanism and he's super squishy, so harass him when you can, and get your team to come gank him. Since he has no escape mechanism and low/mid hp from your harrasing, it makes for an easy gank. He also takes way to long to be relevant, and he's very item dependent, so if you gank sniper down lots early game, he'll be shit for the rest of the game pretty much.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

^ What happens when you get him early with Tornado + Cold Snap ?
I usually go for 3 quas then max wex :P You never need to go back and heal in a 1 vs 1 Situation :P
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Call for gangs. Cold Snap + any stun = dead sniper
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Quote:
Originally Posted by FischiO_o View Post
^ What happens when you get him early with Tornado + Cold Snap ?
I usually go for 3 quas then max wex :P You never need to go back and heal in a 1 vs 1 Situation :P
If you stay far back and just focus on last hitting and creep equilibrium, you should be absolutely fine, as soon as invoker tries to move close to you, all you need to do is either run back or auto attack harass him, or both. Tornadoes from long range are relatively easy to dodge and even if he hits a few, it wont kill you. Also you do need to go back and heal in a 1v1 situation, if you run out of money for consumables, or your chicken dies etc :P. The thing is sniper vs invoker is a very comfortable lane for sniper once he reaches 5/7, sniper should never die and have a good cs. Don't get me wrong sniper vs invoker is a great lane for invoker as well, but sniper should be able to eak out the better farm, that is if you don't consider ganks, which is silly. Once you take into account ganks and everything else, invoker has a massive advantage, for many obvious reasons. But my main point is still that sniper should never die vs an invoker 1v1, and neither should the invoker.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

You should still be last hitting with higher base damage if you went exort.

Focus on your timing a little more, chances are you started your animation when the creep entered last hit range rather than 0.5 seconds (ish) before.

Also making a first item phase is a good way to start really out DPSing him.
He is a tough laner in mid.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y-O-D-A View Post
If you stay far back and just focus on last hitting and creep equilibrium, you should be absolutely fine, as soon as invoker tries to move close to you, all you need to do is either run back or auto attack harass him, or both. Tornadoes from long range are relatively easy to dodge and even if he hits a few, it wont kill you. Also you do need to go back and heal in a 1v1 situation, if you run out of money for consumables, or your chicken dies etc :P. The thing is sniper vs invoker is a very comfortable lane for sniper once he reaches 5/7, sniper should never die and have a good cs. Don't get me wrong sniper vs invoker is a great lane for invoker as well, but sniper should be able to eak out the better farm, that is if you don't consider ganks, which is silly. Once you take into account ganks and everything else, invoker has a massive advantage, for many obvious reasons. But my main point is still that sniper should never die vs an invoker 1v1, and neither should the invoker.
Hmm ... your right with the Tornados :P
So what would be the best way to deal with him ( We got retarded Pubber in our team that don't want to gank him )

Should we just farm up ?
How can we harass him or
should we gank the side-lanes ?

Idk , i mean you need atleast a littlebit to be effective in the mid game as Invoker ( ofcourse you can farm well in the Lane [ even when you forced to go exort ] )
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

He's out last hitting you? Cool, Invoker isn't a carry hero who needs lots of farm.

I highly recommend against ever going exort, it's just REALLY bad.
Quas Wex, Cold Snap. Even if you only get a few hits in, it's a TON of damage.
Once you're level 7 just go and emp + tornado gank everything on the map.

Being out last-hit mid is NOT the biggest deal, while some pub players might think it is. If you're a hero like NS or Invoker you can make up the lost mid with a few kills.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Quote:
Originally Posted by FischiO_o View Post
Hmm ... your right with the Tornados :P
So what would be the best way to deal with him ( We got retarded Pubber in our team that don't want to gank him )

Should we just farm up ?
How can we harass him or
should we gank the side-lanes ?

Idk , i mean you need atleast a littlebit to be effective in the mid game as Invoker ( ofcourse you can farm well in the Lane [ even when you forced to go exort ] )

Well the post below the one I just quoted, pretty much answers everything. I myself don't play invoker much so what tactics to do I can't really say. Just call for ganks till they come, and make sure not to hoard your mana, keep sniper on his toes, harass as much as possible. Like the other poster said, being outfarmed mid isn't the end of the world for invoker. While it's bad to let a carry farm, sniper takes a VERY long time to get to the point where he can farm extremely fast (like lets say compared to AM who once he gets his first item, farms like a beast).
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Quote:
Originally Posted by xBeelzebub View Post
He's out last hitting you? Cool, Invoker isn't a carry hero who needs lots of farm.

I highly recommend against ever going exort, it's just REALLY bad.
Quas Wex, Cold Snap. Even if you only get a few hits in, it's a TON of damage.
Once you're level 7 just go and emp + tornado gank everything on the map.

Being out last-hit mid is NOT the biggest deal, while some pub players might think it is. If you're a hero like NS or Invoker you can make up the lost mid with a few kills.
smh

LOL @ going exort is really bad

oh god so much fail in that post I dont' even know where to start, I bet your ass if this guy learned how to micro early spirits and went with an EQ build he would've murdered the sniper in lane, just don't suggest anything you don't know shit about please
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:24 PM   #21
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Or you can just quas/stout him and trollool him when you outtank him and go in front of his creeps.

Unless sniper outranges invoker,he can't do jackshit.
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:25 AM   #22
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Theories are theories, you need practice more and have more experiences and all will be alright.
The smarter mid laner always win
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:32 AM   #23
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by Schmeiser View Post
So i'm a fairly new invoker player(20 games or something around that number) but i got the hang of it, i dominated my mid lane almost all the time, got a good grip on invoking spells on lvl 17+. But yesterday i did a dota 2 game vs this really sick sniper, because of his attack animation and last hitting skills i couldn't get shit for creeps so instead of going the usual quas/wex i went for exort so i could get some last hits. Because of his super ultra range and none of my teammates helping me gank him i got shit on so hard and sniper got farmed. Everytime i tried to go for some harass he's so far back behind his creeps cause of his range and i just felt so useless. So should i be winning this lane or not?
Sniper has shitty base damage. Just get Exort until you can outfarm and outlevel him with denies. Don't bother trying to kill him without teammate support. Just keep down his farm and exp.
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:38 AM   #24
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by iinvoke View Post
smh

LOL @ going exort is really bad

oh god so much fail in that post I dont' even know where to start, I bet your ass if this guy learned how to micro early spirits and went with an EQ build he would've murdered the sniper in lane, just don't suggest anything you don't know shit about please
Except Exort IS bad you dumb pub. There is a reason every single pro player goes Quas/Wex til at least level 8/9.
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:40 AM   #25
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

If you really wanted to win the farming battle, perhaps getting an early forge spirits may help? If you can have a greater damage cap for last hitting (the damage from exort + your own base damage + the forge spirit itself) then you should be able to battle out with him in last hitting stuff.

Of course I'm not saying its the optimal route to go for, I'm not even used to Invoker at all, Its just an idea that occured to me hehe~
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:56 AM   #26
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by MrSoada View Post
Except Exort IS bad you dumb pub. There is a reason every single pro player goes Quas/Wex til at least level 8/9.
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:58 AM   #27
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

I don't play voker at all, but going an E/Q build seems like it would dominate sniper. Gives you massive damage and regen, so he can't last hit or deny anything and he can't harrass you at all. People are saying that you don't need big farm with voker and that you can't give up the lovely Q/W spells, but sniper certainly DOES need the farm that you would be completely denying him by getting E in lane.

If you insist on staying with Q/W tornado should have enough range to get him with some help from a ganking ally.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:02 AM   #28
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Sniper is just too easy to gank, with a quas/wex invoker and an ally, sniper will fall to ganks easily especially if there are no wards.(If there are, use smoke ganks).
Sniper's base dmg is also crappy, abuse that, out denying last hit is easy.Also cold snap hurts sniper a lot during laning phase, although his ulti is annoying, ur regen would shrug off it as if its just a speck of dust.
Forge spirit and snap is also devastating but without an allied gank, its pretty difficult to hit him( If he skilled a lot of take aim and stayed uphill).

All in all, invoker outlanes sniper in any way however the laning phase could be abit passive when sniper's range is too high for invoker to kill him or harass


BTW at all the exort haters, invoker's build is very flexible no build counts as "very bad", it shines later in game then Q/W(which i prefer) though it isnt that useless.The +dmg helps you to last hit better, and sunstrike is a semi-decent ks skill, globally.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:39 AM   #29
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by dragonccc View Post
Sniper is just too easy to gank, with a quas/wex invoker and an ally, sniper will fall to ganks easily especially if there are no wards.(If there are, use smoke ganks).
Sniper's base dmg is also crappy, abuse that, out denying last hit is easy.Also cold snap hurts sniper a lot during laning phase, although his ulti is annoying, ur regen would shrug off it as if its just a speck of dust.
Forge spirit and snap is also devastating but without an allied gank, its pretty difficult to hit him( If he skilled a lot of take aim and stayed uphill).

All in all, invoker outlanes sniper in any way however the laning phase could be abit passive when sniper's range is too high for invoker to kill him or harass


BTW at all the exort haters, invoker's build is very flexible no build counts as "very bad", it shines later in game then Q/W(which i prefer) though it isnt that useless.The +dmg helps you to last hit better, and sunstrike is a semi-decent ks skill, globally.
Thanks, I can already picture a scenario of how to lane against a sniper with EQ, one little trick I always like to use is to get an early summon and orb walk him if he's downhill, otherwise if he's uphill, send a summon up the hill, give him 1-2 hits MAX (ur summon will die real quick in early phase), and then before your summon dies throw a cold snap and then attack the sniper, you wont' kill him but you'll waste his tango/salves and rinse and repeat and you'll win the lane

@ MrSoada: I'll gladly try a 1 vs 1 match with you APOM with EQ invoker vs your sniper so you can show me how badly an exort invoker loses to a sniper mid.
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Old 02-02-2012, 03:50 AM   #30
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by iinvoke View Post
smh

LOL @ going exort is really bad

oh god so much fail in that post I dont' even know where to start, I bet your ass if this guy learned how to micro early spirits and went with an EQ build he would've murdered the sniper in lane, just don't suggest anything you don't know shit about please
It IS really bad you filthy pub.

And don't throw that word out there, "micro", there's no fucking serious micro in this game.

No, having a chen and 3 creeps isn't good enough to be considered micro, controlling 4 heroes is piss easy, controlling 2 fucking spirits that don't even have spells and an invoker is childs play.

Don't go telling me I'm bad because "hurr u dunt even no how to micro spirits!!!!!1", exort is shit, quas/wex is better in almost every situation.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:15 AM   #31
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Invoker made a RAMPAGE! XD
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:56 PM   #32
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Obviously doing it wrong..

Maintain absolute dominance against the weak laner before he builds up his spells. Before he even gets that "safe range", continuously to harass the fool who dared challenge one of the greatest heroes in mid. From level 1, spam harass(abuse Q regen), then use tornado/Cold snap to take the kill. There's absolutely no way Sniper can win mid against invoker.

---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by xBeelzebub View Post
It IS really bad you filthy pub.

And don't throw that word out there, "micro", there's no fucking serious micro in this game.

No, having a chen and 3 creeps isn't good enough to be considered micro, controlling 4 heroes is piss easy, controlling 2 fucking spirits that don't even have spells and an invoker is childs play.

Don't go telling me I'm bad because "hurr u dunt even no how to micro spirits!!!!!1", exort is shit, quas/wex is better in almost every situation.
iinvoke is one of the best invoker players out here and you...

*facepalm*
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:27 PM   #33
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by iinvoke View Post
Thanks, I can already picture a scenario of how to lane against a sniper with EQ, one little trick I always like to use is to get an early summon and orb walk him if he's downhill, otherwise if he's uphill, send a summon up the hill, give him 1-2 hits MAX (ur summon will die real quick in early phase), and then before your summon dies throw a cold snap and then attack the sniper, you wont' kill him but you'll waste his tango/salves and rinse and repeat and you'll win the lane

@ MrSoada: I'll gladly try a 1 vs 1 match with you APOM with EQ invoker vs your sniper so you can show me how badly an exort invoker loses to a sniper mid.
Yeah I've faced this tactic as sniper, and its very easy to lane against, it's called kitting (sending the spirits up the hill really?, free gold for me thnx). A lot of players don't understand how to play a very passive lanning sniper, and once you reach level 5 , which is easy to do, then invoker can do nothing to you 1v1. Getting to 5 is a little tricky/costly, but as long as you control the creep wave, and stay as far back as possible, invoker can't kill you, and if you send spirits to him all he needs to do is back up/auto attack them, they have shit hp and they give amazing gold as well. Getting a good block off at level 1 is pretty important as well. The only issue I've had is having to last hit against inv+spirits, which is hard to do but I could still hold my own, either way I have very rarely died vs invoker. Sniper doesn't have lane dominance against invoker, but he does have a lane where he can farm in relative safety, that is of course in a 1v1 setting or in a pub where allies don't gank sometimes.

In a team game however, as I've said before, invoker has the HUGE advantage, but 1v1 if nobody comes to gank this lane is easy for sniper. And imo going for the more superior invoker build, and just call for ganks on sniper, is the much better way of playing this scenario out, instead of trying to outlane him 1v1.
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:29 PM   #34
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by SugaSutA View Post
Obviously doing it wrong..

Maintain absolute dominance against the weak laner before he builds up his spells. Before he even gets that "safe range", continuously to harass the fool who dared challenge one of the greatest heroes in mid. From level 1, spam harass(abuse Q regen), then use tornado/Cold snap to take the kill. There's absolutely no way Sniper can win mid against invoker.[COLOR="Silver"]

:
I guess i was too passive first 3-4 lvls and that was my mistake, as i said i had no hlp from my teammates. About the Exort and q/w builds i won't comment since im fairly new but i find exort super boring, it focuses mostly on dmg and i was never a big fan of that, rather CC and throw tornadoes. Obviously i still take atleast 1 lvl of E for icewalls and DB
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:45 PM   #35
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by Y-O-D-A View Post
Yeah I've faced this tactic as sniper, and its very easy to lane against, it's called kitting (sending the spirits up the hill really?, free gold for me thnx). A lot of players don't understand how to play a very passive lanning sniper, and once you reach level 5 , which is easy to do, then invoker can do nothing to you 1v1. Getting to 5 is a little tricky/costly, but as long as you control the creep wave, and stay as far back as possible, invoker can't kill you, and if you send spirits to him all he needs to do is back up/auto attack them, they have shit hp and they give amazing gold as well. Getting a good block off at level 1 is pretty important as well. The only issue I've had is having to last hit against inv+spirits, which is hard to do but I could still hold my own, either way I have very rarely died vs invoker. Sniper doesn't have lane dominance against invoker, but he does have a lane where he can farm in relative safety, that is of course in a 1v1 setting or in a pub where allies don't gank sometimes.

In a team game however, as I've said before, invoker has the HUGE advantage, but 1v1 if nobody comes to gank this lane is easy for sniper. And imo going for the more superior invoker build, and just call for ganks on sniper, is the much better way of playing this scenario out, instead of trying to outlane him 1v1.
There's no way I can perfectly help you visualize what I really mean because it's just all text, but when i say send spirits up the hill, and you orb walk the person, you distract the sniper from getting CS, he loses damage as he attacks your laning creeps, but if he attacks your spirits, as soon as your spirit gets around half hp you throw a cold snap and start auto attacking him with ur spirits, he won't kill it, and even if he does manage to kill the spirit it's guaranteed he loses a huge chunk of his hp which is a great trade off he cannot withstand this for a second time, when he loses alot of hp he starts bein alot more conservative in laning

you have to understand when I said send spirit up the hill, I'm assuming the creep equilibrium is right at the very center in middle and my invoker is also at the very center. If he's staying back to kill the spirit he's going to lose creep kills to me and I'm just going to pull my spiirt back. If he stays and attack the spirit, ima just throw that cold snap as soon as it's like half hp.
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:03 PM   #36
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Lol at the idiots that underrate sniper. Passive sniper can not be hard outlaned by any hero in the same way as you cant stop solo mid PA from farming.

Invoker has 42 base damage
Sniper has 39

So yes, invoker may have an advantage initially, but sniper has an incredible animation which easily ofsets this. If he gets a level of headshot, invoker will typically start to fail in the last hit war. Any good sniper then proceeds to go wraith / basi and maybe even a phase afterwards, which basically means invoker is utterly screwed and cant hope to out macro sniper.

Even exort voker faces some of these difficulties although the macro war is overall a hell of a lot more balanced, but you risk gimping your mid-late.

Anyway, outside of the macro war that leaves us just with invoker trying to force sniper out of lane. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually work. While invoker can try skipping the creep line and cold snapping sniper, sniper will typically be able to just drop shrapnel and then fight back while under cold snap, and invoker will end up losing if sniper priorities shrapnel. If he priorities take aim you wont even be able to get him to cold snap.

And let me point out that invoker cant really trade too many hits with sniper since sniper will be attacking first every time due to better animation and range, and sniper typically rushes base damage (wraith) items and will likely fight uphill.

Sniper of course gets utterly destroyed by ganks, so thats the way to beat him. If you cant though, you'll likely lose with QW voker, so go the EQ one, where it's a lot more balanced overall. (but risk having an inferior midgame)

@invoke: have you taken notice of the fact that Spirit level 1 (level 3 invoker) has like 300 range and pretty poor damage. I'm pretty sure sniper can kite that pretty easily.
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:49 AM   #37
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

invoker owns him
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:40 AM   #38
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by Schmeiser View Post
So i'm a fairly new invoker player(20 games or something around that number) but i got the hang of it, i dominated my mid lane almost all the time, got a good grip on invoking spells on lvl 17+. But yesterday i did a dota 2 game vs this really sick sniper, because of his attack animation and last hitting skills i couldn't get shit for creeps so instead of going the usual quas/wex i went for exort so i could get some last hits. Because of his super ultra range and none of my teammates helping me gank him i got shit on so hard and sniper got farmed. Everytime i tried to go for some harass he's so far back behind his creeps cause of his range and i just felt so useless. So should i be winning this lane or not?
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:29 AM   #39
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

Go EQ build, harass with Sun Strike, Cold Snap and Forge Spirit. Just duke it out till one of you retreats (but both is already hurt as much). You regen faster with Quas, then go in and harass again.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:36 AM   #40
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Default Re: Invoker vs Sniper mid

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Originally Posted by xBeelzebub View Post
It IS really bad you filthy pub.

And don't throw that word out there, "micro", there's no fucking serious micro in this game.

No, having a chen and 3 creeps isn't good enough to be considered micro, controlling 4 heroes is piss easy, controlling 2 fucking spirits that don't even have spells and an invoker is childs play.

Don't go telling me I'm bad because "hurr u dunt even no how to micro spirits!!!!!1", exort is shit, quas/wex is better in almost every situation.
Wow, got to say you truly are confident, insulting the best Invoker player on this site. Please go play a match with him, would love to see you getting stomped by him.
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