[Recipe Remake] Refresher Orb

[Luffydude]

IMO The main reason why an item with such a strong active gets picked up only once every 100 games is because most heroes that could use it, generally don't have the mana to use it because the bonus stats it gives are pretty awful.

Big list of heroes that could use it:

Zeus - This hero already has a good ulti stick, but he has other items to prioritize because he has has no disables (thus having to get Euls/Hex), no escape mechanisms (so needing Force staff and sometimes even Dagger). After these, if he decides to get a refresher, he doesn't have the mana to use it.

Rhasta - The ability to drop double wards on the enemy base is gamebreaking yes, but with the huge mana that his ulti already costs, he won't have mana for anything else since his spells are very expensive. Plus he is one of the most focused heroes so the ulti stick is already a far better choice since it makes him less squishy. After ulti stick he really benefits more from BKB, Euls and Dagger than Refresher most of the time. So again, Refresher doesn't give him what he needs.

Enigma - This hero already has an expensive core, and even with the BKB he can still die easily by being right clicked. Refresher doesn't help with his survival.

Tide - If he manages to farm it, he will still need wand, AB and maybe 2 nulls to be able to cast double ulti. Could use better bonuses

Warlock - At the moment, this is the hero that makes the most of what Refresher has to offer, but still, he also needs the ulti stick to make the most of his combo. He doesn't need the hp regen since he can heal himself and he will generally go Meka.

Harby - His ultimate really needs some INT boosting before it's gamebreaking and when he gets his Force and Sheepstick, Refresher's regen is useless to him, the +40 damage is close to nothing since his orb can already do almost 300 pure damage at this point. Getting a Shiva is just way better and cheaper than the Refresher. Again if the bonuses were different, it could become more viable

Phoenix - He is the fastest hero that can perform a double combo with the refresher, since his ulti also fully restores his mana, though he could just rush it with better bonuses

Leoric - The refresher acts like an Aegis on him, but even if he manages to come back to life multiple times, he probably isn't that much of a threat because he wasted more than 5k gold on just 40 damage. He says, either improve the bonuses or just make it way cheaper to be useful enough.

Doom - Being able to shutdown 2 heroes looks pretty good but besides being unable to cast other spells due to the lack of mana, he can just grab a Radiance with the gold for refresher.

With this list, here is my proposed change:

Old Refresher Orb 5300g
Bonus
+5 HP/sec regeneration
+200% mana regeneration
+40 damage
+6 Intelligence
Reset Cooldowns (active)

Recipe
Oblivion Staff (1675)
Perseverance (1750)
Refresher Orb (1875)

New Refresher Orb 5300g (same cost)
Bonus
+75% mana regeneration
+30 damage
+10 Strength
+10 Agility
+16 Intelligence
+10 Attack Speed
Reset Cooldowns (active)

Recipe
Oblivion Staff (1675)
Ultimate Orb (2100)
Refresher Orb (1525)

This change would have the following pros:
- Double ultimates doable without the need to have over 10k farm on most heroes, since there is extra mana for the active.
- A big difference for heroes that need the extra tankiness like Zeus and Rhasta
- A lot more appealing for carries as it gives a lot more DPS for int carries like OD
- Perseverance doesn't even look like an orb in Dota2 (and makes sense it doesn't because it's a ring and a rock combined..), so it should take an orb to upgrade to an orb.
- By the time Refresher Orb is useful, its regen is just useless. This way, there is no wasted slot on the inventory

[Athenas_Wrath]

I kinda like it, but the pers (while less useful) is much easier to build early and more useful early as a buildup to the refresher then an ult orb would be.

Still like it though, so T-Up for me.

[Lord_Talron]

your intentions are good, but i just get the feeling that this really solves nothing. t-null from me

[silly_me]

Just want to continue with the hero list. The only hero I've seen picking up Refresher Orb in professional games is Akasha.

As for the suggestion, I kinda like it. The mana reg and hp reg that late game is often very negligible. This is actually a rather neat solution to balance the item. I like the fact that you didn't reduce the mana cost, as suggested so many times before.

[Luffydude]

Originally Posted by Athenas_Wrath

I kinda like it, but the pers (while less useful) is much easier to build early and more useful early as a buildup to the refresher then an ult orb would be.

Well, Refresher Orb is a late game item so I don't think that having a good buildup for the laning phase can be useful for making the item.

Originally Posted by Lord_Talron

your intentions are good, but i just get the feeling that this really solves nothing. t-null from me

I believe the only problem it doesn't solve it's the expensiveness of the item. Which should stay expensive, since it has a strong active, just like Hex.

Originally Posted by silly_me

Just want to continue with the hero list. The only hero I've seen picking up Refresher Orb in professional games is Akasha.

As for the suggestion, I kinda like it. The mana reg and hp reg that late game is often very negligible. This is actually a rather neat solution to balance the item. I like the fact that you didn't reduce the mana cost, as suggested so many times before.

Well to be honest I think it's kinda bad on QoP since her ulti stick already puts her ultimate at a very low 40sec cooldown

[silly_me]

Originally Posted by Luffydude

Well to be honest I think it's kinda bad on QoP since her ulti stick already puts her ultimate at a very low 40sec cooldown

Well, 40 sec doesn't always allow you to cast it twice in a team fight.

[lilaznelementz]

i would like refresher orb's recipe/stats to be change but i dont see whats suggested will fix it's problems.

[Kenshiro]

I THINK THIS IDEA FOR REFRESHER ORB IS QUITE INTERESTING, MAKING HEROES WITH LOW MANA POOLS LIKE THE MANLIEST HERO IN DOTA WITHOUT TESTICLES, I.E. KING LEORIC, BE ABLE TO USE IT A BIT EARLIER THANKS TO THE EXTRA INT.

MAYBE THE OTHER PROBLEM OF REFRESHER ORB IS ITS HUGE COOLDOWN (THOUGH LOWER THAN BEFORE) ; IT MAY BE A GOOD IDEA TO LOWER THIS COOLDOWN A BIT MORE.

[silly_me]

^ Because you are using caps, it is hard to tell if you are trolling or not. The fact that you like Refresher on Leo just makes it more likely.
What I am saying is don't use caps unless for a particular reason.

[Lord_Talron]

Originally Posted by silly_me

^ Because you are using caps, it is hard to tell if you are trolling or not. The fact that you like Refresher on Leo just makes it more likely.
What I am saying is don't use caps unless for a particular reason.

nm, you're new.

I FORGOT ABOUT LEORIC.

T-UP FOR THIS, THIS WILL MAKE BALLING OUT OF CONTROL MORE DESIRABLE THAN IT WAS BEFORE

[Lama051]

This makes it harder to farm.

About your reasons:
1. Having to farm at least one mana item to use double ultimate is intended otherwise nearly everyone would get refresher since it would be simply too good to pass on.
2. Zeus/Rhasta would not get it since there are items they need more and only time they might consider it would be late game.
3. Well, OD is the only carry that would make use of it, oh wait, he already does when making it his 5/6th item to double ult teamwipe.
4. Seriously?
5. Regen is never useless.

Overall, T-Down

[Kenshiro]

Originally Posted by silly_me

^ Because you are using caps, it is hard to tell if you are trolling or not. The fact that you like Refresher on Leo just makes it more likely.
What I am saying is don't use caps unless for a particular reason.

I AM NOT TROLLING ; I JUST GOT INFECTED BY CRIMSONQUESO'S MANLINESS.

REFRESHER ORB ON LEORIC IS SOMETHING YOU DEFINITELY DON'T DO IN MOST GAMES, BUT IT'S INCREDIBLY FUN WHEN YOU CAN DO IT, AND IT'S STILL QUITE EFFECTIVE.

[H3ndriX]

I like it enough to t-up but i think the recipe cost should remain the same as before (making the item overall more expensive). I feel that having the possibility to get this "upgrade-path" for these other useful items might be just a little bit too good if the recipe cost is lowered. Afterall, the most annoying part of building refresher orb is to farm up the recipe gold.

t-up anyway

[psukkar]

Refreasher is good for heroes with ults that have large aoe and long cd.

Im thinking get rid of the recipe in your suggection and put a pers instead.

the item will be 100 gold cheaper.

So;

1)Ultmate orb
2)Persverance
3)Obvilon staff

no recipe

[Hemoxyte]

I like it but like the other guy said perseverance is easier to get rather than ulti orb, saving up for just the recipe requires extensive farming.

1)Ultmate orb
2)Persverance
3)Obvilon staff

This seems nice.

[shreyuz]

Heavy T-Down
Refreshers is an absolutely game breaking item. Having heroes like doom,Tide, Enigma getting it without solving their mana issues first is just wrong and imbalanced. Not only that you are giving heroes huge stats for survivability making it an extremely safe item to buy.

[Luffydude]

To the above posters, the whole point of having a recipe cost is to compensate for the extra bonuses not covered in the components, just imagine an Assault Cuirass, if the recipe was removed and instead it was another Plate Mail, giving 25 armor... or a Dagon, instead of having 5 recipes it required a claymore for each upgrade... level 5 of it would give +100 damage... it would just be too strong

Refresher is still a late game item, when you are playing like a Dark Seer and you already have Arcane Boots and a Hex (covering mana regen), and Vanguard (covering hp regen) and Aghanim. You don't need the extra regen because it's totally useless at this point, the extra +5hp regen pales because you already have over 10, and the extra % mana regen is also useless because at this point you don't even go below half your mana pool. So having the preseverance is useless imo

Originally Posted by H3ndriX

I like it enough to t-up but i think the recipe cost should remain the same as before (making the item overall more expensive). I feel that having the possibility to get this "upgrade-path" for these other useful items might be just a little bit too good if the recipe cost is lowered.

t-up anyway

Well my friend the item would still be stronger than it is now if it did cost 300g more, so it's just a matter of tweaking it till it has the right price.

[ztrnxz]

Originally Posted by shreyuz

Heavy T-Down
Refreshers is an absolutely game breaking item. Having heroes like doom,Tide, Enigma getting it without solving their mana issues first is just wrong and imbalanced. Not only that you are giving heroes huge stats for survivability making it an extremely safe item to buy.

they will still have mana issues...just not as heavy...
the difference of 10 int is 130 mana...not that big of a deal when the active is still 375mana

u do realize most of them wont farm as their first item cuz its doesn't benefit everyone the same way...

the only ones that will get it as first luxury will prob be warlock and tide...

the balance of this remake is the ult orb and the recipe is still expensive...
2.1k + 1.5k is nothing small...but it rewards the people who get it much more

t-up...although the components can still be played around...the general idea is good...

[WHIT3FOX]

Aganheims on Zeus + a cheap refresher orb is open to way too much abuse of his ulti. Witht hat combo you could end a teamfight as soon as it started; now imagine that power on an Invoker :O T-down for me simply because refresher orb is already realy strong, making heroes fix the mana isues first is a way to slow down it's power and compensate for the late game advantage it gives them.

[pigi_rylai]

Nice suggestion, like the new numbers , T-up.