Why do people think Sunray was so weak?

[Typhox]

Originally Posted by SugaSutA

Talk about lying hardcore.

I'd like to see such common ultras and rampages anywhere.
I doubt you can even give me more than 3 replays of it actually occurring as compared to even providing one.

I could show you if there was a decent replay manager that let's me search for that. I for sure won't manually fast forward through 1700 replay files, not even through one to be honest. Of course I have some replays saved extra and I uploaded some of them in these forums as well, but that's only replays that were somewhat special, mostly due to extreme noobish enemies and thus resulting in strange games that I consider worth saving. Don't get rampage so often though and I'm usually more trying things out than playing seriously^^
Also, by "quite common" I don't mean every game, but quite common for a Ultra kill (roughly 10% of all games I think). I'd really like to find out, but I need a tool which at least is able to recognize these things ...

The attached replay has a rampage, but it is rather bad game (host left because he found it unfair that he got raped 5vs4, me being the 4, his team the 5). Not worth seeing imo and I just uploaded it because in this case I was able to remember one of those players who played against me (because he insulted me after the game on Garena and I banned him, thus I only had to search through my ban list to find him). Oh yes, I play all Phoenix games on Garena pubs (not anymore in Japan though, because Phoenix gets instant picked every game I play which is too annoying).

I just randomly found another one featuring an Ultra kill (so I would have my 3 I guess^^) but I'm too lazy to upload it as it is a 29/4 score, quite a stupid game to show imho.

See, I have experience in stomping with sunray:

[efectiv]

dont know...why?

[SkittlesAreYum]

Originally Posted by Typhox

I get 20 kills per game only with sunray, why does it need a buff?
It's too strong already in early game.

Are you saying you average 20 kills per game with Sunray? I doubt it, since averaging 20 kills per game with any hero, using all skills would make you the best Dota player of all time.

[Typhox]

Originally Posted by SkittlesAreYum

Are you saying you average 20 kills per game with Sunray? I doubt it, since averaging 20 kills per game with any hero, using all skills would make you the best Dota player of all time.

No, the not using of the word "average" was intended. Indeed, it is impossible to get 20 kills every game because games are over too fast.

[Lapis Lazuli]

Originally Posted by SugaSutA

To be honest, Sun ray used to be insanely strong with the slow, but without it despite it being a very useful long range nuke it's just not as reliable as a lot of other spells out there, and mobility heroes kills off all possible chances of Phoenix being a top tier hero.

Sun Ray, slow or not, never had anything on mobility heroes to begin with. What the hell is your point?

[5chneemensch]

Originally Posted by KuroNeko

60 + 6% max hp in pure damage is no fucking joke. That is 120 pure on a 1000 hp hero per second. Noobs will be noobs. Don't tell me this skill is weak, because it is currently phoenix's strongest/most worthwhile to level ability.

This guy told us truth

[darewin]

Originally Posted by KuroNeko

I max Sunray first ever since the nerf to spirits' healing (andrhe buffto sunray's damage).

60 + 6% max hp in pure damage is no fucking joke. That is 120 pure on a 1000 hp hero per second. Noobs will be noobs. Don't tell me this skill is weak, because it is currently phoenix's strongest/most worthwhile to level ability.

Those guys just miss the slow since I guess they can't aim it at normal speed guys @_@

It was actually used more for the slow back then. You could slow and burn while your allies hit them. But now it's harder to aim but with a greater reward.

Guess you play against heroes without disables. And it also scales poorly. Why not keep it at level 1?

[Typhox]

Originally Posted by darewin

Guess you play against heroes without disables. And it also scales poorly. Why not keep it at level 1?

I also keep it on level 1 mostly because i prefer 10 mana activation cost over 40 mana activation cost in early game.

[CynthiaCrescent]

Originally Posted by darewin

Guess you play against heroes without disables. And it also scales poorly. Why not keep it at level 1?

Are you saying you can't cast it again, or just can't aim it in the first place?

[GodlyKha]

Never max it first unless you're in a tri-lane set up specifically for you to sun ray people down. The normal build is:

1: Sun Ray
2: Spirits
3: Spirits
4: Dive
5: Spirits
6: Supernova
7: Spirits
8-10: Dive
11: Supernova
12-14: Ray

Level 1 & 4 ray/dive can be interchanged as needed. Usually phoenix will be aggressive with level 1 ray, not having to worry about dying. Or even 1 Ray, 2 Dive, 3-5 spirits.

[Typhox]

Originally Posted by GodlyKha

Never max it first unless you're in a tri-lane set up specifically for you to sun ray people down. The normal build is:

1: Sun Ray
2: Spirits
3: Spirits
4: Dive
5: Spirits
6: Supernova
7: Spirits
8-10: Dive
11: Supernova
12-14: Ray

Level 1 & 4 ray/dive can be interchanged as needed. Usually phoenix will be aggressive with level 1 ray, not having to worry about dying. Or even 1 Ray, 2 Dive, 3-5 spirits.

Hm, i usually get Dive, Sunray, FS, FS, FS...
Since Firespirits don't give a heal anymore I prefer sunray and dive over them as they are more reliable and versatile to use. You can gank starting at level 2 with this build, but you might want to buy soulring and boots first (so I always start ganking at level 6 when I go mid).
Ohya, and sunray is damn reliable when the enemies don't yet have boots

[deconsigliere]

not strong so much, it can be a suicide if the enemies chose to fight back, because pho's armor is very weak, and that skill cost a lot hp, but weak or strong is really depend on fight situation and opponents's mind and skills..

[svartabullar]

I totally agree!

[Typhox]

Originally Posted by deconsigliere

not strong so much, it can be a suicide if the enemies chose to fight back, because pho's armor is very weak, and that skill cost a lot hp, but weak or strong is really depend on fight situation and opponents's mind and skills..

If they fight back you can just run away. You shouldn't use that skill against people who stand right in front of you. Use the long range to attack them far outside of their cast/attack range. Except from Bloodseeker, noone can you anything.

[SugaSutA]

Originally Posted by Typhox

See, I have experience in stomping with sunray:

Stomp=/= it's overpowerd.

Fine you gave me a replay, and since you admitted that it ISN'T FUCKING COMMON SINCE 10% ISN'T "COMMON" ._.

Anyway, mobility heroes kill you off. Weaver AM LYCAN Spectre BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. Which are all still quite used in games these days.

[khojsiab]

I think u guys are assuming this is 1v5...

[sargeras66]

Ya I never understood why people thought this skill was weak when in fact, it's his strongest spell.

[deconsigliere]

Originally Posted by Typhox

If they fight back you can just run away. You shouldn't use that skill against people who stand right in front of you. Use the long range to attack them far outside of their cast/attack range. Except from Bloodseeker, noone can you anything.

i know,there is much another option than choosing use phoenix, but it quite fun when play it just for fun

[Pleomax_b]

If you have decent opponents nobody will allow you to stay there and burn people..you must play on Garena or something. The amount of shit will be thrown at you in a fight will force you to do ulti or run away with dive. Please stop playing vs idiots.

[Typhox]

Originally Posted by Pleomax_b

If you have decent opponents nobody will allow you to stay there and burn people..you must play on Garena or something. The amount of shit will be thrown at you in a fight will force you to do ulti or run away with dive. Please stop playing vs idiots.

I wonder against which kind of people you play.
Obviously your enemies let your carry attack them while they chase Phoenix, knowing that he has an excellent escape and can Sunray them right again, thus they need to travel 2000 units only to kill him. Of course nobody of your teammates stands in the way.
You must be playing with noobs I guess. Or are you playing without team mates? Besides that it has a nice AoE that always hits 2 to 5 enemies at the same time while they can't do anything against you because therefore they'd have to run to you (2000 units). Have fun. Not even Anti-Mage has it.

Or are you initiating? When you play against good players, standing somewhere in the clash is the worest thing you can do because you can't ult, and you can't sunray, meaning you're totally useless.

Or maybe you're just one of the noobs I'm complaining about.
Upload a replay. I'm pretty sure I can help you out of your painful situation.