RUSHING DIVINE ON LEORIC?

[Mazoku]

WITH RADI AND MJOLNIR AND NO ONE HITTING YOU, you just have 40 damage per second. It's as easy as aparition throwing down an Ice vortex, Beastmaster roaring a target behind you, having boar on you, Invoker ICE WALL or any random combo of even the weakest slows, and you're reduced to a walking NOTHING.

GOOD I BENEFIT FROM LONG TEAM FIGHTS.

My allies will stay far behind while my radiance chew down their HP. They decide to focus me? Mjolnir will own them combined with my allies and reincarnation.

How do you expect to deal those "hits" or that monster "AOE", when enemies can fight as close as 400 range away from you with only receiving 40 damage per second. In WHICH WAY is weaver for example inferior to Leoric in this case?

You yet fail to realize how leoric is played in this scenario. You dont go for burst team fights, you burn them with radiance, you go far ahead. You force them to either initiate/kill you or either suffer from it. Do you at least understand that?
With DR leoric you cant do that, as you pose no threat. With DR leoric you aim for burst team fights wich means your ult is pretty much a +1 spell and you will suffer from kiting a lot.

In WHICH WAY is weaver for example inferior to Leoric in this case?

I think comparing him to sylla would make much more sense even though they are quite diferent. With weaver you do not go right in front scaring everyone back.

---

BTW you asked for a replay, here you go just played it 5 minutes ago. Allies fed like crazy, i was counter picked+Kited and we also got a leaver.

Still i managed to own them heavily. Damn, that radiance+Chain lightning+Static charge realy paid of as it provided me with an ultra kill and a rampage and even won us the game fairly easily.

CS is quite shitty just 250 as my allies kept stealing farm from me (chen neutrals and necro rushed BOT). HH is not shown on praser but i had it in case magina wanted to try some funky stuff.

[Kenshiro]

OMG, YOU FED WITH THE MANLIEST HERO IN DOTA THAT DOES NOT HAVE TESTICLES, BECAUSE YOU DIED ONCE !

I WISHED I COULD PLAY AGAINST SUCH PUBTARDS MORE OFTEN (AND NOT WITH, AS DOTA 2'S MATCHMAKING SYSTEM SEEMS TO PAIR BAD PLAYERS WITH GOOD PLAYERS IN YOUR TEAM, INSTEAD OF MAKING A LEAGUE SYSTEM WHERE PLAYERS OF SIMILAR LEVEL WOULD PLAY TOGETHER OR FIGHT EACH OTHER.).

THE IDEA OF GETTING MAELSTROM AS YOUR FIRST "BIG" ITEM KINDA WORKS IF YOU CAN GET AN INITIAL ADVANTAGE ; COMPARED TO ARMLET, YOU GENERALLY TRADE SOME SINGLE-TARGET DPS (THE THRESHOLD IS SOMETHING LIKE 13 OF ARMOR FOR NORMAL MAGIC RESISTANCE) AND EHP FOR AN AOE PRESENCE AND A LITTLE HELP FOR FLASH FARMING.

AND Y U NO STATS MANIPULATION ? WITHOUT MAGIC WAND NOR MANA REGEN, YOU WERE OFTEN SHORT OF THE CRUCIAL 140 MANA THRESHOLD, INCLUDING DURING YOUR SHAMEFUL FEEDING ATTEMPT !

[CynthiaCrescent]

I would have to try Rapier rush Leoric then.
Black_ice's comments have at least convinced me that it is worth the shot, and seems to be legit under not too specific circumstances.

[Mazoku]

OMG, YOU FED WITH THE MANLIEST HERO IN DOTA THAT DOES NOT HAVE TESTICLES, BECAUSE YOU DIED ONCE !

I was ganked by 4 people because i was greedy. I thought i was going to be able to score a triple kill before dieing but only got a double... i switched treads to int before geting killed but falled 5 mana short (i think).

I WISHED I COULD PLAY AGAINST SUCH PUBTARDS MORE OFTEN (AND NOT WITH, AS DOTA 2'S MATCHMAKING SYSTEM SEEMS TO PAIR BAD PLAYERS WITH GOOD PLAYERS IN YOUR TEAM, INSTEAD OF MAKING A LEAGUE SYSTEM WHERE PLAYERS OF SIMILAR LEVEL WOULD PLAY TOGETHER OR FIGHT EACH OTHER.).

How does dota 2 matchmaking works? I mean, what is the criteria to form teams?

AND Y U NO STATS MANIPULATION ? WITHOUT MAGIC WAND NOR MANA REGEN, YOU WERE OFTEN SHORT OF THE CRUCIAL 140 MANA THRESHOLD, INCLUDING DURING YOUR SHAMEFUL FEEDING ATTEMPT !

AM and PA were comited to going for paper item builds. I figured out that crits might be more usefull than stats (and it payed off quite well!).

I feed but like a real men. If im going to feed im going to take as many heroes as i can to hell with me.

[Black_Ice]

@CynthiaCrescent. Against pubbers of Mazoku's game skill level, going Rapier Rush should provide an easy victory. Basically Mazoku could have gotten Rapier before Magina finished his Vanguard.

Against more "challenging" pubbers (IE from a better rated Garena Room/Private Platform) or a "Team" of pubbers, it's generally better if you play with a friend of your own that can ensure your success (Omni, Dazzle, Chen, Wisp, Levi, Enigma).

I'm pretty sure this can also become a more legit low-mid lvl CW strat, provided you pick Leoric last and are confident you can offer him the farm.

ALWAYS remember that side-effect slows are your worst nightmare (the ones that are not aimed at you, but splash their effect onto you nonetheless).

With the Rapier Rush build, if you're either tanking the damage, or dealing the damage, you should be winning.

Have a good night!

[Kenshiro]

Originally Posted by Mazoku

How does dota 2 matchmaking works? I mean, what is the criteria to form teams?

AM and PA were comited to going for paper item builds. I figured out that crits might be more usefull than stats (and it payed off quite well!).

THE DOTA 2 MATCHMAKING SYSTEM ISN'T DISCLOSED YET, BUT WHAT I DESCRIBED ABOVE IS QUITE EASY TO VERIFY. PLAY A LOT OF GAMES LIKE ME (I HAVE 500+.), AND BE PREPARED TO ENCOUNTER SOME GOOD PLAYERS, AND SOME OF THE WORST YOU COULD IMAGINE.

OPEN THE SCOREBOARD AND CLICK ON THEIR NAME TO OPEN THEIR DOTA PROFILE ; THE NUMBER OF WINS IS INDICATED, AS WELL AS THE GAME HISTORY THAT CAN STORE UP TO 72 PAGES OF RANKED GAMES' REPLAYS, WITH 7 GAMES PER PAGE. THAT'S 7 X 72 = 504, SO UNLESS SOMEONE HAS PLAYED MORE GAMES THAN THAT, IT'S PRETTY EASY TO GET AN ESTIMATE OF THE WINRATE, AS IT'S SOMETHING LIKE NUMBER OF WINS / 7 X NUMBER OF PAGES. AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT WHETHER I CHECKED THE DOTA PROFILES OF OBVIOUSLY GOOD PLAYERS OR PLAIN TOTAL NOOBS, THE WINRATE ALWAYS STAYED VERY CLOSE TO 50%.

WE STARTED OUR THINKING PROCESS BY MAKING THE HYPOTHESIS THAT IT WAS SIMPLY A MATTER OF BAD LUCK WITH A CONSTANT CHANCE TO GET A N00B PER SLOT. BUT A FEW THINGS CONTRADICT THIS HYPOTHESIS :

1) IF YOU WERE A N00B, THERE WOULD BE A CHANCE TO GET ANOTHER COMPLETE N00B IN YOUR TEAM, AND 2 N00BS SHOULD TILT THE ODDS OF LOSING VERSUS ANOTHER TEAM WITH 1 N00B FOR EXAMPLE, THEREFORE TRUE N00BS SHALL HAVE LESS THAN A 50% WINRATE.

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

SO, BECAUSE 1) ISN'T VERIFIED AND BECAUSE OF 2) LEADING TO THE CONCLUSION DOTA 2 DOES SOMETHING BY CHECKING THE DIFFERENT LEVELS, THE ONLY RATIONAL CONCLUSION WE'VE ENDED WITH WAS WHAT I WROTE EARLIER ; IT TRIES TO MAKE THE AVERAGE LEVEL OF EACH TEAM SIMILAR, YET IF THERE ARE SOME GOOD PLAYERS ON ONE TEAM, IT WILL TRY TO GET PURE N00BS TO COMPLEMENT, INSTEAD OF PUTTING FOR EXAMPLE 100% GOOD PLAYERS IN SENTINEL AND SCOURGE FOR GAME A AND 100% BAD PLAYERS IN SENTINEL AND SCOURGE FOR GAME B.

FOR THE STATS MANIPULATION, DO WHAT I ALWAYS DO (POWERNET IS PROBABLY THE BEST EXAMPLE OF THIS IN A COMPETITIVE TEAM I'VE SEEN SO FAR.) ; PUT YOUR PT ON INT FOR CASTING YOUR SPELL, AND IMMEDIATELY SWITCH TO WHATEVER ATTRIBUTE YOU NEED. THIS IS ONLY POSSIBLE IF YOU REASSIGN THE KEYS FOR YOUR INVENTORY, AND THESE KEYS ARE MOST PROBABLY EXTRA BUTTONS ON YOUR MOUSE FOR MAXIMUM SPEED.

[Alcoholic_panda]

It will work if you play as a purely defensive Leoric.

[Mazoku]

SO, BECAUSE 1) ISN'T VERIFIED AND BECAUSE OF 2) LEADING TO THE CONCLUSION DOTA 2 DOES SOMETHING BY CHECKING THE DIFFERENT LEVELS, THE ONLY RATIONAL CONCLUSION WE'VE ENDED WITH WAS WHAT I WROTE EARLIER ; IT TRIES TO MAKE THE AVERAGE LEVEL OF EACH TEAM SIMILAR, YET IF THERE ARE SOME GOOD PLAYERS ON ONE TEAM, IT WILL TRY TO GET PURE N00BS TO COMPLEMENT, INSTEAD OF PUTTING FOR EXAMPLE 100% GOOD PLAYERS IN SENTINEL AND SCOURGE FOR GAME A AND 100% BAD PLAYERS IN SENTINEL AND SCOURGE FOR GAME B.

How does the ranking sistem work? It just takes win/lose information? Do you have points or something alike?


You said you regularly play as 3-4 man stack, so it wouldnt surprise me if you have a limited amount of options in the remaining slot asuming there are not 6 equaly skilled oponents avilable.

BTW you can have an estimate number on how many ppl are looking for a match. Just divide the total amount of ppl playing a dota game by the avarage duration of a game and multiply it by the matchmaking waiting time.

That should give you a decent estimation of people tring to find a match (would be nice to know that number on your region). Once you got that estimate what would be nice to do is find exactly at what position your 3-4 man stack are in terms of ranking in the server (this is why i asked the first 3 questions).

If you are above 90% in terms of skill viable options (no noobs) reduce significantly.

@CynthiaCrescent. Against pubbers of Mazoku's game skill level, going Rapier Rush should provide an easy victory. Basically Mazoku could have gotten Rapier before Magina finished his Vanguard.

Actualy rapier on that game would have meant auto lose. Did you even realize my magical damage output was probably >2-3k?
I didnt rape them due to my right clicks, but due to chain lightning bounce, static charge, radi and insane farming potential (that got screwed).

Not that my single target DPS was bad, in fact quite the oposite.

With the Rapier Rush build, if you're either tanking the damage, or dealing the damage, you should be winning.

Or getting kited and losing the game due to not doing anything with 0 late game potential due to shit farming speed.
Better go for ursa, at least he doesnt need to buy a DR to get that kind of single target DPS and can try to solve his mobility early on.

[-NighTmareX-]

I try this a lot of time with bala. But at first i go for agh and a gem then rush for devine. And after that i dont die but but my killing time begin.

[vvjacobo]

I SEE YOU ARE NOT WRITING IN CAPS, SO NO, YOU SHOUDN'T GO DIVINE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MANLY ENOUGH.

[patrishosho]

Originally Posted by vvjacobo

I SEE YOU ARE NOT WRITING IN CAPS, SO NO, YOU SHOUDN'T GO DIVINE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MANLY ENOUGH.

I IS DONE EDITING DA OP SO I ARE MANLI ENAP NAO??

[HariSeldon]

Originally Posted by SugaSutA

As a first item? No.
After boots? No.
After core? No.
As luxury item? No.
Get it if you went 10:0 in 10 minutes? No.

.

No.

This,.

[Kenshiro]

YES, IT IS MANLY ENOUGH NOW.

@ MAZOKU : I JUST CHECKED RIGHT NOW THE NUMBERS, AND THE NUMBER OF LIVE GAMES WAS APPROXIMATIVELY 3220, MEANING THERE WERE APPROXIMATIVELY 32200 PLAYER IN-GAME. NOTE I HAD 35735 PLAYERS ONLINE. BECAUSE THIS WAS DONE AT AROUND 12:00 PM GMT, I SUPPOSE MOST CONNECTED PLAYERS ARE SPREAD BETWEEN EUROPE AND CHINA.

THE APPROXIMATE WAITING TIME WAS SOMETHING LIKE 3 MINS 15 (HAD TO AVERAGE BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT REGIONS...) ; IF THE AVERAGE DURATION OF A GAME IS SAY 35 MINS, THAT MEANS THE ESTIMATION OF PLAYERS WAITING TO FIND A MATCH IS THEN (32200/35)*3.25 = 2990 PLAYERS.

AS I SAID EARLIER, NOBODY REALLY KNOWS HOW THE RANKING SYSTEM WORKS ; BASING IT ON WINRATE IS MOOT, AS EVERYBODY HAS A WINRATE CLOSE TO 50%.

HOWEVER, THERE'S A PERFORMANCE BAR, THAT HAS A VERY SHORT EXPLAINATION THERE.

TRULY MANLY LEORIC PLAYERS SHALL HAVE THAT PERFORMANCE :



VVJACOBO CAN TESTIFY ABOUT MY AMOUNT OF BONERSTERONE.

ONE OF MY MATES TOLD ME HE FOUND ONE DAY A LINK ON REDDIT THAT SAID SOMEONE COULD MAKE VARIOUS STATISTICS (GOLD PER MINUTE, XP PER MINUTE, APM, ITEMS' USE, ETC.) IN DOTA 2, SO IT WOULDN'T BE SURPRISING VALVE COULD COLLECT AS MUCH IF NOT MORE. IN ANOTHER GAME I PLAY, WARGAME : EUROPEAN ESCALATION, THE GAME MANUAL TELLS US THE RANKING SYSTEM IS THE ELO SYSTEM AND GIVES US THE WIKIPEDIA LINK. MY GUESS IS THAT THE PERFORMANCE BARS ARE BASED ON ALL THE STATISTICS VALVE COULD COLLECT, INCLUDING THE ELO RATING, AND THEN USE WHATEVER FIT TO DETERMINE A PERFORMANCE VALUE FOR EACH HERO.

NOTE THAT DURING THE MATCHMAKING SEARCH, THERE'S A BAR REPRESENTING THE SEARCH RANGE :



THE MORE TIME IS SPENT FINDING A MATCH, THE BIGGER THE SEARCH RANGE, MEANING THE OTHER PLAYERS CAN BE OF A VERY DISSIMILAR LEVEL. I GUESS THE ONLY RELIABLE WAY TO TRICK THE MATCHMAKING SYSTEM IN ORDER TO GET SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN 50% OF WINRATE IS TO NEARLY ALWAYS PLAY AS A 5-MAN STACK, AND JUST BE PATIENT TILL YOU GET A GAME ; THE CHANCES YOU'LL FACE A 5-MAN STACK ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY LOW, AND WITH A BIT OF TRAINING, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO BEAT ANY NON-STACK YOU'D MEET, THOUGH IT'S LIKELY THE OPPOSITE PLAYERS WOULD HAVE A HIGH INDIVIDUAL SKILL...

AT LEAST, FROM WHAT I RECALL, WHEN WE COULD GATHER THE TROOPS AND PLAY AS A 5-MAN TEAM, WE NEARLY NEVER LOST...

[Black_Ice]

Mazoku, you are sadly mistaken. Going Rapier would have destroyed those noobs without even the slightest complication. They were incredibly bad, so bad even that mentioning their ability to "kite" you just makes you look new. I've seen mortred so many times dance back and forth without even THINKING of pressing that Stifling Dagger button.

You can argue all you want, but the replay you've posted is worth more than your arguments. I've played a big amount of games against people way better than those poor clueless bastards, where Rapier rush was dominant.

There's absolutely no way you could have lost with Rapier Rush unless you're clueless about how to handle it, which is becoming more obvious you are. Please give it a try, and post the replay.

More reasons why those noobs couldn't hold a candle to Rapier rush:
1. You've had absolutely FREE farm mid versus an incompetent Mirana (he claimed lag, but no matter what the case was, you had FREE FARM).
2. AM WAS TERRIBAD. Just awful.
3. There was only ONE situation in which more than 2 people were attacking you. Most of the time they were scrambling around not knowing what the fuck was going on. You freely right-clicking 2 heroes while 2 more watch is NOT a 4v1.
4. Necro and Chen had the necessary skill level to accompany you on your final push at the 20 minute mark, as well as ensure you don't lose that Rapier.

And for the love of god don't bring "Kiting" into the conversation about that replay EVER AGAIN. Had you gotten Rapier, those terribad opponents would have either blindly fought you hand to hand (And died in 1-2 hits), or just scrambled for their lives. In no way were Chen and Necro unprepared to make short work of those idiots would they have managed to actually kill you once.

[Piorun]

It can work on some heroes like Clinkz but even on him its after PT, and hp items like bracers.

Leroic is like walking creep, he has nothing except that bolt.
its so easy to stun him, slow him and kill him just with 2 heroes

No escape mehanizm, no chasing mehanizm
give it to heroes like Weaver

[Mazoku]

Mazoku, you are sadly mistaken. Going Rapier would have destroyed those noobs without even the slightest complication. They were incredibly bad, so bad even that mentioning their ability to "kite" you just makes you look new. I've seen mortred so many times dance back and forth without even THINKING of pressing that Stifling Dagger button.

Not realy, it would have encourage them to destroy me via FF.

but the replay you've posted is worth more than your arguments.

Yup, DR is clearly inferior.

I've played a big amount of games against people way better than those poor clueless bastards, where Rapier rush was dominant.

Were you expecting me to play 20 games and select the one without leavers/good skill oponents?

There's absolutely no way you could have lost with Rapier Rush unless you're clueless about how to handle it, which is becoming more obvious you are. Please give it a try, and post the replay.

Its called beeing agresive. The moment i realize they could either ignore me (wich they did) and die or atack me and die even faster i went all in. You probably were not paing atention so you didnt see that my allies were getting owned hard.
I doubt the DR would have given me a win, because i would have probably end up stun locked and mana burned to death.

1. You've had absolutely FREE farm mid versus an incompetent Mirana (he claimed lag, but no matter what the case was, you had FREE FARM).

With stout shield + 6xtango there is not much a pub POTM can do to prevent me from farming. Even if she decided to auto atack me every time i came close that wouldnt have been enough to draw me away.

2. AM WAS TERRIBAD. Just awful.

So were Veno, Chen and Necro.

3. There was only ONE situation in which more than 2 people were attacking you. Most of the time they were scrambling around not knowing what the fuck was going on. You freely right-clicking 2 heroes while 2 more watch is NOT a 4v1.

Magina blink--->PA Dagger into a long range arrow--->Fisure.

That is a 4v1. Maybe they were not expecting arrow to miss or maybe they were not expecting magina to die. Point of the matter is they failed there and it costed them 2 lives.

4. Necro and Chen had the necessary skill level to accompany you on your final push at the 20 minute mark, as well as ensure you don't lose that Rapier.

Probably not. Besides, i do not belive the DR should have come online by the 20 min mark. More like the 25 min mark id say.
Care to compute the DPS+Lvl diference for me from the two skill builds?

And for the love of god don't bring "Kiting" into the conversation about that replay EVER AGAIN.

Sure, because that was exactly what they were trying to do even if it was futile as it didnt matter to this kind of playstyle. Maybe the DR leoric would have encountered a lot of problems, not beeing able to go agresive due to fearing Fisure+Arrow combo and ending up with trash items latter in the game due to 0 farming speed.

[JaCKaSS_69]

Only if you get Phase, MoM and BKB before it so you can be a mad baller.

[Black_Ice]

I'm just going to say that Rapier rush wins games, sometimes as a requirement, sometimes for the lulz, but it's really hard to lose a Rapier versus that low quality of noobs. Learn to play with your team, even though they are "bad".

[Milith]

Originally Posted by Kenshiro

AT LEAST, FROM WHAT I RECALL, WHEN WE COULD GATHER THE TROOPS AND PLAY AS A 5-MAN TEAM, WE NEARLY NEVER LOST...

IS IT MANLY TO KILL SLUGS WITH A HEAVY SHOTGUN ? IS IT MANLY TO STOMP NON-STACKED TEAMS WITH A STACK ? I THINK NOT.

THEREFORE I'M AFRAID SIR THAT IF YOU TAKE PART OF THIS KIND OF ACTIVITIES YOUR MANLINESS ISN'T STRONG ENOUGH TO PLAY THE MANLIEST HERO WITHOUT TESTICLES IN THE WHOLE WORD OF DOTA.

5 MANLY MEN STACKS PLAY CAPTAINS MODE TO MAXIMIZE THEIR ODDS OF MEETING ANOTHER 5 MEN STACK. PEOPLE WHO DO OTHERWISE SHOULD USE NON-MANLY PICKS SUCH AS ANTIMAGE OR LION SO THAT LEORIC IS STILL AVAILABLE FOR REAL MEN.

[azurile]

Originally Posted by Black_Ice

I'm just going to say that Rapier rush wins games, sometimes as a requirement, sometimes for the lulz

gonna snip your quote as i only have an issue with this part of it.


saying that rapier rush is sometimes needed on leoric for him to win games is just blasphemy. i'm sorry, i don't know how high you perceive your level of play as, but stomping via rapier rush is just stupid however fast you say you can get it. if there's such a big difference in skill as you say, then going the manly cookie cutter leo build should suffice no?