[INT-SENT] Trinoth, Elder Seer

[crazy sheep]

***Trinoth, Elder Seer***

~~~Story~~~

Once a Seer of great renown, she was aghast when she foresaw the arrival of a rampaging Burning Legion in her Elven glades. She knew her strengths and limits, and that Sargeras could not be beaten in a head on fight. And so she vanished into the night and fog before Sargeras' Legion entered Azeroth.

~~~Stats~~~

Affiliation: Sentinel
Primary Attribute: Int
Range: 150 [melee]
Base Movement Speed: 310
Base Damage: 45-49
Str 20; +1.65 per lvl
Agi 19; + 1.95 per lvl
Int 25; + 2.0 per lvl

Base Hp: 530
Base Mp: 325
Base Armor: 2

Envisioned role: Int-DPS

~~~Skills~~~


1. Singing Spear [active, self buff]

Trinoth hurls her spear with such force that it maims all those hit by her spear. Deals damage, slows units affected.

Lvl 1: Max of 2 units affected, maims units for 1 second, 600 unit range max.
Lvl 2: Max of 3 units affected, maims units for 2 seconds, 650 unit range max.
Lvl 3: Max of 4 units affected, maims units for 3 seconds, 700 unit range max.
Lvl 4: Max of 5 units affected, maims units for 4 seconds, 750 unit range max.

Framework: Hurled spear travels in a straight line, "piercing" through units in a straight line from Trinoth to the first unit she attacks.

Manacost: 110/120/130/140
Cooldown: 17 seconds at all levels
Duration: 7/8/9/10
Cast Range: n/a

Comments on skill: Temporarily turns her into a ranged hero. Damage dealt is her normal damage. Maims for -20% MS.


2. Intuition [passive, self]

The Elder Seer has vast experience in solo combat, giving her high intuition.

Lvl 1: Each point of Int gives + 0.06% Evasion.
Lvl 2: Each point of Int gives + 0.14% Evasion.
Lvl 3: Each point of Int gives + 0.22% Evasion.
Lvl 4: Each point of Int gives + 0.30% Evasion.

Framework: Silver rune circling Elder Seer.

Manacost: n/a
Cooldown: n/a
Cast Range: n/a

Comments on skill: Evasion buffs her survivability in melee combat. Only evades physical attacks, not magical attacks.


3. Fighting Spirit [active, AoE]

Trinoth rallies her allies to fight on, granting them bonus AS. Trinoth gains extra AS when this skill is activated.

Lvl 1: Buffs self for +50% AS, buffs allies for +35% AS.
Lvl 2: Buffs self for +75% AS, buffs allies for +35% AS.
Lvl 3: Buffs self for +100% AS, buffs allies for +35% AS.
Lvl 4: Buffs self for +125% AS, buffs allies for +35% AS.

Framework: Red grips in fists/weapons like Bloodlust.

Manacost: 105/115/125/135
Cooldown: 20 seconds
Cast Range: n/a
AoE: 350 AoE around Trinoth

Comments on skill: Being a DPS hero, she needs a steroid spell to make up for her lack of natural attack speed.


Ultimate: Ancient Wisdom [active/AoE, passive/self]

Trinoth, having gained much wisdom throughout the years, now uses it to destroy her enemies outright by unleashing a psychic storm in the targetted area.

Lvl 1: Deals 4x Int as damage. Passively grants +10 Int
Lvl 2: Deals 5x Int as damage. Passively grants +25 Int
Lvl 3: Deals 6x Int as damage. Passively grants +40 Int

Framework: Like Razor's Plasma Field, except that it's an AoE target, hence faster expansion rate.

Manacost: 350/450/550
Cooldown: 120/110/100
Cast Range: 250
AoE: 400/500/600

Comments on skill: Active nuke deals magical damage, hence is reduced by magical resistance. Passive grant buffs Trinoth's mana pool and damage.

Credits:
HiveWorkshop for the images. [Kyzerdrood32 for hero icon; lelyanra for Intuition icon; bigapple90 for Fighting Spirit icon; ~Void~ for Ancient Wisdom icon]
PD members for feedback on this suggestion.

[bimjowen]

5 abilities, and one is unfinished?

Basically, she is Silencer/Destroyer version 3.0

I like her ult though, I always thought there should be an Intelligence version of that ultimate

But yeah...

-she has no farming ability (which makes sense on a hero with abilities that scale so well with items)
-her slow is too good, 20% at all levels makes it too good early, and it costs WAYYYY too little mana. Compare this to PA's Stifling Dagger; yes, hers is a super cheap manacost, but she's an agility hero, and hers only hits ONE target, not a max of FIVE!!!! (Also, PA's doesn't scale; this gets better as her attack gets better) -- just way way too good as-is.
-Reflexes and Intuition are interesting, but silly. 100 points of Intelligence will give her 10% evasion -- underwhelming at best. And 100 points of Agility (utterly absurd to have on an int hero) will give her a 10% chance to counterattack. Obviously the counterattack one is the better ability, and I think it's good that you gave such a powerful ability that scales with a stat that isn't her main stat, but giving her TWO abilities that scale with opposing stats makes her unable to itemize in a single direction. Also, her stat growth is crap (which is a good way to balance a DPS semi-carry like this), but it just ruins these two abilities.

Devotion (an AOE armor buff) really makes no sense on an Int hero.

[crazy sheep]

Originally Posted by bimjowen

5 abilities, and one is unfinished?

Basically, she is Silencer/Destroyer version 3.0

I like her ult though, I always thought there should be an Intelligence version of that ultimate

But yeah...

-she has no farming ability (which makes sense on a hero with abilities that scale so well with items)
-her slow is too good, 20% at all levels makes it too good early, and it costs WAYYYY too little mana. Compare this to PA's Stifling Dagger; yes, hers is a super cheap manacost, but she's an agility hero, and hers only hits ONE target, not a max of FIVE!!!! (Also, PA's doesn't scale; this gets better as her attack gets better) -- just way way too good as-is.
-Reflexes and Intuition are interesting, but silly. 100 points of Intelligence will give her 10% evasion -- underwhelming at best. And 100 points of Agility (utterly absurd to have on an int hero) will give her a 10% chance to counterattack. Obviously the counterattack one is the better ability, and I think it's good that you gave such a powerful ability that scales with a stat that isn't her main stat, but giving her TWO abilities that scale with opposing stats makes her unable to itemize in a single direction. Also, her stat growth is crap (which is a good way to balance a DPS semi-carry like this), but it just ruins these two abilities.

Devotion (an AOE armor buff) really makes no sense on an Int hero.

First off, thanks for the comments.

Hmm about the entire idea/suggestion I've submitted here, it's still pretty much in development, hence the unfinished ability. Also, all the numbers set down are still pretty much in development, hence the need to ask for comments to improve the balance.
About Singing Spear, I see what you mean. Looks like a nerf to the whole skill is in order.
As for Reflexes and Intuition, would a buff work? Or is a remake more suitable?
AoE armour is really kinda situational for Int heroes. I mean, Lich has a target armour buff through Frost Armour. But I might remove Devotion entirely.

[Trillianm]

Don't be too hasty about nerfing that spear. Look more closely at PA's stifling dagger - it slows for a whopping 50%, does damage (160), and has next to no mana cost, with a 10 second cooldown vs. the spear's 15. Personally, I rather like this ability, as it embraces the trend of skills being more area effect oriented, without making the slow an absurd amount. Still, I think it would be much better if it was targeted like Elune's Arrow, instead of being a singular autoattack effect (I'm not fond of this weird mechanic).
[I notice you edited your post after the first response, so it's possible this ability used to be a bit broken. 20% is definitely fine, and I'd even consider a buff to 25%]

Big fan of the +int giving +evasion, as it starts of rather weak, but inherently must scale well with levels. It gives the int character the ability to survive despite being melee.

LOVE the idea with the +agi giving +counter as well, but it does not belong on this character. Basically, it sounds like you're trying to make some int/agi hybrid from this, which is some awful kind of glass cannon that's just so squishy it's unplayable. Alongside this idea, I suggest nerfing the agi and buffing the strength. Even with the +evasion, a melee int will not survive without a higher strength per level.

As far as the ultimate goes, everybody's thought about this, but is it really a good idea? Great Fortitude is amazing, as it gives him an absurd amount of health not only for great survivability, but to complement his return, as well as extra damage. And it's 12/24/36, which means level 6 is +228 health (VERY considerable at that level) , and +684 health at final rank. This is a great ability.
Drow Ranger gets a little more in the agi department, because it's not as useful as strength - it doesn't make you live forever. 15/30/45 gives her a very nice damage boost with not only +damage, but also attack speed... not to mention a solid 6.4 armor for a little survivability boost.
Now look at what int would do for this character. Damage, naturally. Aside from that... a mana pool and regen. But you don't need a mana pool NOR regen, as you only have one active ability! Sadly, I don't think this ultimate belongs on any int character with passives, as it means there can only be two active abilities (one slot taken up by a normal passive, one taken up by the ultimate passive), which pretty much guarantees that the int boost is unnecessary.


Biggest problem with this character:
What is its purpose? What role does it fill that can not be filled by some other character much better? Imagine you're in a team fight, and everybody ignores this character. It has one slow, but it has no real disables, nor a high enough damage output to be a threat. One on one, it also probably would not survive. It desperately needs active abilities that DO things.

Suggestion: Drop the ultimate and the Reflexes. Replace Reflexes with some form of disable or nuke, and the ultimate with something else. I love the other two spells, and would hate to see them go away. If you're dead set on keeping the ultimate, at LEAST scale it to some absurd amount of int like 18/36/54 - it's the worst stat in the game, as it really only helps with mana, which is a problem easily solved with ONE of many item choices in the game.

[RazedBlossoms]

Bahh, Reflexes and Intuition are both great, but numbers could do with a nerf.

150 int = 72% evasion?

[BloodyComputer]

I think that 3 passives is kind of crap with a semi-passive, and 2 skills that do basically the same thing is bad. I see why you did the ult, it's the int version of Drow and Cent but I don't think 3 passives is good for an Int.

[crazy sheep]

Originally Posted by Trillianm

Don't be too hasty about nerfing that spear. Look more closely at PA's stifling dagger - it slows for a whopping 50%, does damage (160), and has next to no mana cost, with a 10 second cooldown vs. the spear's 15. Personally, I rather like this ability, as it embraces the trend of skills being more area effect oriented, without making the slow an absurd amount. Still, I think it would be much better if it was targeted like Elune's Arrow, instead of being a singular autoattack effect (I'm not fond of this weird mechanic).
[I notice you edited your post after the first response, so it's possible this ability used to be a bit broken. 20% is definitely fine, and I'd even consider a buff to 25%]

Big fan of the +int giving +evasion, as it starts of rather weak, but inherently must scale well with levels. It gives the int character the ability to survive despite being melee.

LOVE the idea with the +agi giving +counter as well, but it does not belong on this character. Basically, it sounds like you're trying to make some int/agi hybrid from this, which is some awful kind of glass cannon that's just so squishy it's unplayable. Alongside this idea, I suggest nerfing the agi and buffing the strength. Even with the +evasion, a melee int will not survive without a higher strength per level.

As far as the ultimate goes, everybody's thought about this, but is it really a good idea? Great Fortitude is amazing, as it gives him an absurd amount of health not only for great survivability, but to complement his return, as well as extra damage. And it's 12/24/36, which means level 6 is +228 health (VERY considerable at that level) , and +684 health at final rank. This is a great ability.
Drow Ranger gets a little more in the agi department, because it's not as useful as strength - it doesn't make you live forever. 15/30/45 gives her a very nice damage boost with not only +damage, but also attack speed... not to mention a solid 6.4 armor for a little survivability boost.
Now look at what int would do for this character. Damage, naturally. Aside from that... a mana pool and regen. But you don't need a mana pool NOR regen, as you only have one active ability! Sadly, I don't think this ultimate belongs on any int character with passives, as it means there can only be two active abilities (one slot taken up by a normal passive, one taken up by the ultimate passive), which pretty much guarantees that the int boost is unnecessary.


Biggest problem with this character:
What is its purpose? What role does it fill that can not be filled by some other character much better? Imagine you're in a team fight, and everybody ignores this character. It has one slow, but it has no real disables, nor a high enough damage output to be a threat. One on one, it also probably would not survive. It desperately needs active abilities that DO things.

Suggestion: Drop the ultimate and the Reflexes. Replace Reflexes with some form of disable or nuke, and the ultimate with something else. I love the other two spells, and would hate to see them go away. If you're dead set on keeping the ultimate, at LEAST scale it to some absurd amount of int like 18/36/54 - it's the worst stat in the game, as it really only helps with mana, which is a problem easily solved with ONE of many item choices in the game.

Ok, so it seems that this Elder Seer doesn't really fulfill any decent role in a team. Guess I need to define that role, then add in further active abilities for use. How about an ultimate which passively grants an Int boost as well as an active skill? And removing Reflexes [+Agi = +counterattack] seems to be the best move for her then. Thanks for the suggestions and feedback! Appreciated it a lot, it tells me how to build this hero properly.

Originally Posted by RazedBlossoms

Bahh, Reflexes and Intuition are both great, but numbers could do with a nerf.

150 int = 72% evasion?

Well, could you even get up to 150 Int in a normal game? I'm hard pressed to think of how you could do that.

Originally Posted by BloodyComputer

I think that 3 passives is kind of crap with a semi-passive, and 2 skills that do basically the same thing is bad. I see why you did the ult, it's the int version of Drow and Cent but I don't think 3 passives is good for an Int.

Yeah, the 3 passive idea is kinda fail. I'm in the process of reworking this idea.

[RazedBlossoms]

100 is already 48%. That dismisses Mortred's Blur.

[crazy sheep]

Maybe a cap might work for Intuition. Gimme a while, I'm currently in the process of remaking her skillset.

[RazedBlossoms]

Originally Posted by crazy sheep

Maybe a cap might work for Intuition. Gimme a while, I'm currently in the process of remaking her skillset.

Wahh? As in total revamp? Hope not, just tweak numbers here and there

[bimjowen]

Don't be too hasty about nerfing that spear. Look more closely at PA's stifling dagger - it slows for a whopping 50%, does damage (160), and has next to no mana cost, with a 10 second cooldown vs. the spear's 15.

Mortred's Stifling Dagger is single-target. That was the point I was trying to make. This spear has a similar cast range, is AOE, scales with her attack damage, and HAD an only-slightly higher mana cost -- on an Int hero, no less! IIRC, the mana cost was like 50-80, but it seems the mana cost has increased since I last looked at it.

Also, Mortred's slow lasts 4.25 seconds. This girl's AOE slow lasts 7/8/9/10 seconds. /BOGGLE......

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 PM ----------

Also, yeah. Her evasion went from 100 int giving her a laughable 10% dodge, to giving her almost 50% dodge -- far outclassing both Mortred and Butterfly.

Still needs some tweaking ;o)

[crazy sheep]

Originally Posted by RazedBlossoms

Wahh? As in total revamp? Hope not, just tweak numbers here and there

A little of both. I'm going to tweak numbers for evasion and Singing Spear. As for Reflexes and her ultimate, those need a total revamp.

Glad you like the overall idea!

Originally Posted by bimjowen

Mortred's Stifling Dagger is single-target. That was the point I was trying to make. This spear has a similar cast range, is AOE, scales with her attack damage, and HAD an only-slightly higher mana cost -- on an Int hero, no less! IIRC, the mana cost was like 50-80, but it seems the mana cost has increased since I last looked at it.

Also, Mortred's slow lasts 4.25 seconds. This girl's AOE slow lasts 7/8/9/10 seconds. /BOGGLE......

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 PM ----------

Also, yeah. Her evasion went from 100 int giving her a laughable 10% dodge, to giving her almost 50% dodge -- far outclassing both Mortred and Butterfly.

Still needs some tweaking ;o)

Yes, the mana cost was much lower before this. I had to bump it up a few notches to balance it.
As for the slow duration, at max level it slows a unit for 4 seconds. The duration of 7/8/9/10 seconds you refer to is the duration of the self buff that lets her gain an AoE ranged attack.
About the evasion part, I was just playing with numbers. Still trying to find a decent balance though, looks like that hasn't worked out well enough.

[bimjowen]

Ah. Gotcha. )

And yes, I have no idea how to make a scaling evasion balanced, either.

[crazy sheep]

Tweaking implemented:

Nerfed Singing Spear a little more.
Tweaked numbers for Intuition again.
Remade third skill.
Remade ultimate.

[crazy sheep]

BUMP

Needs more comments after tweaks!

[nix]

I kinda like it. Pretty original, cept for the steroid skill.

Buff the numbers on Intuition. At level 16 it should give around 25% evade. So... try .3% evade per int point.

17, 20, and 100 for cooldowns is pretty high, she'll have some huge unused mana don't you think?

How about you buff the passive, but make it cost 15 mana each hit evaded?


Just did some numbers. Without ANY items, at level 16 she can do 679 damage in that AoE. That seems just a tad high to me, when you compare manacost and cooldown with QoP.

I suggest making it 4/5/6x int instead of 5/6/7x int.

[crazy sheep]

Originally Posted by nix

I kinda like it. Pretty original, cept for the steroid skill.

Buff the numbers on Intuition. At level 16 it should give around 25% evade. So... try .3% evade per int point.

17, 20, and 100 for cooldowns is pretty high, she'll have some huge unused mana don't you think?

How about you buff the passive, but make it cost 15 mana each hit evaded?


Just did some numbers. Without ANY items, at level 16 she can do 679 damage in that AoE. That seems just a tad high to me, when you compare manacost and cooldown with QoP.

I suggest making it 4/5/6x int instead of 5/6/7x int.

Hmm. Thanks for the suggestion regarding evasion percentages. I had a hell of a hard time figuring out appropriate numbers for her.

It might not be too good for her to spend mana to evade hits, that would make it a tad too similar to Templar's Refraction. {EDIT: Not to mention it would be the perfect way to stop her from casting her spells without using Diffusal Blade.}Unless I remake Singing Spear to become an orb effect with manacost per cast. Might be viable, what do you think about that remake instead?

4/5/6x Int. Ok, thanks for the heads up on that. 570 seems more reasonable than 665 damage for a scaling nuke.

Thanks for dropping by!

[IcyImp]

looks like a pretty set hero
T-up
(after all the changes have been made)

[crazy sheep]

Hmm, thanks for the comments, but what do you mean by "set hero"? :/

Oh, and the changes have been implemented already.

[dotapaz]

Kind of fail ^^

too passive on an int hero... he is simply not dangerous...

he slows you and all he can do is autoattacking, not difficult to counter that...
he has his ult, which really doesnt kill you even though the ult is OP

ulti is way too strong, passive 40 int would be almost enough as an ulti but adding such a nuke too it makes it a relly nice ult...

skills simply dont synergize well, no clear concept, abilities almost all exist in a form like that -> lacks innovation

sorry i really dont like that...

i can see an idea behin this hero, but you really need to make a more straight forward concept on him