[Targeting] Quick Toss

[Nevfigalo]

Quick TossAbility Type: Active
Targeting Type: Point
Ability Hotkey : Q



Notes:

• Damage type: Illusion's attack
• Projectile speed: 750.

Additional Notes:

• Targeting is based on ladder ability Reveal (point target). It was designed for towers and it ignores facing and actions of the caster. It can be casted during attacking/moving or backward.
• Ability throws a missile in the targetted direction, which works like Mirana's arrow hitting first enemy target (85 aoe detection/10000 max range).
• Instead normal physical/magical damage, an illusion of our hero is created, which attacks once target (illusion is not visible for players). It makes this ability scalling well.

[Vot1_Bear]

quite interesting actually, i love spammable skills and i like aiming skills even more. My only concern is that with that manacost it'll prove to be a deadly harassment tool and later on +1 attack every second is easily superior to geminate attack, though it only works in certain situations (nobody between you and target).
Instant-cast (doesn't interrupt movements/actions) is a really strong aspect. Don't underestimate it.

[cairnebloodhoof]

I like it.

[Nevfigalo]

Originally Posted by Vot1_Bear

quite interesting actually, i love spammable skills and i like aiming skills even more. My only concern is that with that manacost it'll prove to be a deadly harassment tool and later on +1 attack every second is easily superior to geminate attack, though it only works in certain situations (nobody between you and target).Instant-cast (doesn't interrupt movements/actions) is a really strong aspect. Don't underestimate it.

I don't like to talk about mana cost without whole skillset and int stats. I would like it to be easily spammable, while successfully stops from casting other skills frequently.
Harassment would be quite hard due to low projectile speed (600, for example Elune's arrow has about 850). I think it could be efficient last-hitting tool for semi-ranged hero (350-400 attack range).

Originally Posted by cairnebloodhoof

I like it.

So do I.

I think that Reveal's possibilities are underused/not known well.
I added edited test map (reduced aoe from 115 to 85, added visual effect at strike, reduced delay time between strike and damage).

[Vot1_Bear]

even without int stats or whole manacost, 10 mana is simply low. A single INT point provides more mana than that, and regenerating that amount of mana is simply too easy. Sure, higher-manacost abilities might need an entire skillset and INT stat to consider its balance, but 10 is simply so low that those aspects won't change it whatsoever, unless it's an extreme low-int hero or limited manapool or something.

But yes, manacost is not really important. still though the idea of dealing 100% damage per second without any interruption on your actions is deadly. Since in real situations it's almost impossible to cast it exactly every sec, let's just assume it requires smth like 1.5s per cast. Still, it provides you with ~66% damage increase, and is simply superior to skills like geminate attack

[Nevfigalo]

10 mana cost with one second cooldown. Even if you cast it 7 times per 10 seconds, it gives -7 mana per second. Funny fact is that average agi hero's mana regen much less than that.
Searing Arrows are great example, when mana cost lower than single int point becomes too much.
Leap is the only skill in my mind which refers to so low mana cost that other aspects doesn't matter.


Deadly? Let's say it is 1.25s per cast, but add a 25% miss/dodge chance. It would deal extra 60% of hero attack per second.
Geminate doesn't provides damage increasment like criticals, because it ignores one factor: attack speed. It is +100% dmg per 2.5 seconds.
Let's say Quick toss grants +100% dmg per second. Seems 2.5 times stronger.
~Except illusion's attack ignores raw damage items (like phase boots/claymore)
~You have to aim/more efforts
~You cannot damage buildings with it
~You can miss (situational) while Geminate is reliable
~Mana cost =]
I would say that Geminate is better early, Quick Toss would dominate mid game, while most criticals would be better late game. But main point is that Geminate and Quick Toss are different.

There is also Hero's factors. Like low base damage, role, gameplay based on movement (you cannot normally attack, because you have to move constantly, which makes Quick Toss your only source of damage). Example, passive skill which grants you damagereduction/evasion during moving.
Consider Clinkz with Geminate attack and Weaver with Searing Arrows. Geminate would be useless with extra attack from strafe and problematic with long cooldown wind walk. While Weaver has to run a lot, which would completely waste potential of searing arrows.

Funny fact is that geminate attack is unique so there are no skills like it. :P Overall, I doubt Gem attack is similar enough to compare them and that Quick Toss is superior. Let's say it is so strong that it is truely superior despite the hero's factor. I still don't mind as long as this hero isn't superior than Weaver.
And I find this skill easily tweakable in mana cost/cooldown/damage. Theorycrafting is fun and mind-challenging, but I can't truely say anything constant without hero's whole skillset and stats. I can now set mana cost to constant 25 and reduce damage, but I am afraid that one day somebody else write that 25 mana cost is way too much. :D There are only numbers, while i find whole idea good and something new.

Tbh, I am now considering Leap mana cost's nerf suggestion. :D

[ShiroYasha98]

Originally Posted by Nevfigalo

asdadwdsad

[Vot1_Bear]

If you change manacost to 25 then i'll be the one to say that it's too much. maybe 15 for now?

Anyway, i agree that comparing it to geminate attack would be quite useless without full skillset and stuff. I wanted to note that GA limits the choice of items (orb effects, etc) but since idk about its interaction in D2 i'll refrain from that

[Nevfigalo]

Yes, I forgot to consider GA's orb effect. Interesting fact is that only Lifesteals and Feedback doesn't truely stack.
Btw, on ranged illusions none orb effect works.

[Drikam]

Damage type: Illusion's attack

Dafuq? ;d

[Nevfigalo]

Originally Posted by Drikam

Damage type: Illusion's attack

Dafuq? ;d

Well, it describes perfectly functionality of dealing damage.

[Drikam]

Actually it does not.. ?

A normal attack of an illusion would not always deal the same damage even if set to 100%, wouldnt always hit too.. But screw that. It would simply hit the target, not first unit.. D:

[Nevfigalo]

Originally Posted by Nevfigalo

I know a normal attack of illusion will not always hit (evasion/ghost scepter) and it deals less damage than actual hero's attack, but as noted it is how damage is dealt. Throws a javelin -> javelin collides with enemy -> creates illusion (100% damage) of our hero -> make it hidden and 0% size -> move it next the enemy -> add maximum attack speed -> order to attack enemy -> removes illusion when it starts attack second time.
Depends on how it is coded it may trigger some skills like Counter Helix, but it can be simple avoided.

[Drikam]

The illu can have invurnebiltiy so it wont trigger helix. ; )

+Axe wont get this skill lol.

+I see how it could be done now. Actually it would have to be similar to elunes arrow, dealing 0 dmg and summoning illu when you said.

[Nevfigalo]

Originally Posted by Drikam

The illu can have invurnebiltiy so it wont trigger helix. ; )
Yes, it's not problematic.

+Axe wont get this skill lol.
Woooot?

+I see how it could be done now. Actually it would have to be similar to elunes arrow, dealing 0 dmg and summoning illu when you said.

Finally, it seems that you got it. :D Should I add some screenshots to avoid misunderstandings in future?

[Drikam]

I mean that Axe will not get a "Quick Toss" skill, so there will not be a need to create his illusion like that.
Whatever. D:

It is not about the screenshots, the illusion would be a dummy, small, invisible to human eye or so anyway I believe.

+The reason I posted that is..

There are 4 types of damage! Physical, Magical, Pure/Universal or GTFO. ^^

[Vot1_Bear]

Originally Posted by Drikam

I mean that Axe will not get a "Quick Toss" skill, so there will not be a need to create his illusion like that.
Whatever. D:

It is not about the screenshots, the illusion would be a dummy, small, invisible to human eye or so anyway I believe.

+The reason I posted that is..

There are 4 types of damage! Physical, Magical, Pure/Universal or GTFO. ^^

He meant that illusions might trigger counter helix if they attack.
I assume that you thought that axe's illusions will have counter helix, and that's a problem. which it isn't.

[Drikam]

no. lol.

[Vot1_Bear]

PS: There is still direct hp removal and mixed damage

[Inreet]

Wow. I like you solution on instacast. I'd like to see it in game.