[ITEM] Bow of Mammon

[seikishi]

Bow of Mammon

The ancient god of greed, Mammon, crafted this bow using the tainted curse of King Midas himself. Its absolute purpose, it seems, is to spread avarice and greed among mortals for all of eternity

REQUIREMENTS:


+
+
=


COST:6000 (recipe of 800)

OLD STATISTICS:

+25 agility
+30 attack speed
Transmute (25 mana, 100 cooldown; kills a target non-hero, non-ancient unit and gives twice the normal bounty plus 40% of the unit's gold cost)

NEW STATISTICS:

+30 agility
+40 attack speed
current gold is used as basis for additional damage
Transmute (50 mana, 60 cooldown)
Covetous Lust (passive)

Covetous Lust:

- enemy hero kills will grant you additional gold equal to 10 times the fallen hero's level
- gives a 10% chance to instantly kill a creep gaining 50% more bounty

Note:
- additional damage is "log((gold+80)/80)x35"
- additional damage is magical
- adds a gold glowing effect on the hero (like a golden Aghanim's scepter effect for Pugna or Akasha)

Changelog:
25 October 2009
- created item
- added recipe of 800
- reduced additional damage from gold by 1%
27 October 2009
- incorporated a log formula for gold as bonus damage

Credits:
- gold log formula by Axidos

[clickrush]

you cant be serious

[Zephirdd]

Add a recipe(~1000gold) and it should be fine. Also remove the 5% gold dealt as damage. That'd be EXTREMLY powerfull to rad-alchemist, for example. Or anyone who just saves gold.

[seikishi]

A few notes and thoughts:

As I have stated in my DotA Chat thread regarding a Midas Upgrade, more or less, this was the sentiment (in a nutshell).

1) An upgrade to Midas would be redundant and would only matter if its gains (such as increased income, attack speed, etc.) were worth delaying other core/survival items.
2) It is preferred if Midas was made cheaper or had a better build-up.

Since I have opted to create an upgrade for it, we will concentrate only on concern number 1.

I have given this item suggestion a few nifty things so as to be seen as a gain, and would probably be considered as an item to be taken before a hero's certain core.

First off, once again judge on concept and not on numbers.

This item is certainly about greed:
- more gold = more damage
- more attack speed (70 at that) would really signify a lust for gold
- more creep kills and hero kills with additional bounties certainly is covetous
- transmute

Mammon is a god of greed, this is the main article for those interested. I simply chose him as the theme of the item seeing that Midas was used for Hand of Midas. I found it fitting as both were part of mythology.

This item is just new and of course needs number/concept balancing. You might want to help me out with:
1) Does it need a recipe? (personally I do not think so because I want to highlight gains with this item -- farming for an item that would mean better farming seems redundant indeed as pointed out)
2) Transmute:
- Was it okay I reduced cooldown by 40 seconds? (seeing as this would be taken at around mid/late game, and would help recoup the money spent for the initial Midas recipe of 1900)
- Was it okay that I added 25 to the mana cost? Is that amount sufficient?
3)The percent-of-gold-as-damage really is unique for me about this. It is codable. However, is 5% right?
4) Covetous Lust:
- are the amounts, and the creep kill process rate, balanced?

These are my main concerns, I hope you like the concept, and see my effort in at least putting my item's currently questionable facets out there for us to reconcile immediately.

[seikishi]

Originally Posted by Zephirdd

Add a recipe(~1000gold) and it should be fine. Also remove the 5% gold dealt as damage. That'd be EXTREMLY powerfull to rad-alchemist, for example. Or anyone who just saves gold.

Thank you for the input. I will add a recipe cost if deemed necessary. But I will wait for further input.

I can't remove the x% of current gold dealt as damage aspect of it because this is what makes it more unique and separate from its original components. But then again, future discussion may warrant its removal. Also, citing a possible isolated case wherein this iis imbalanced does not immediately mean that the item is imbalanced itself. I am now reducing the amount to 3% after some initial calculations.

[iKrivetko]

I knew you were about to post something like this!;D
Me luvz the concept. Here are some ideas for the points you stated.

1) It does need a recipe. Cause the dps bonus is huge, let aside the bonuses.

2) Transmute must be removed. You gain enough bonuses. Instead you could add an active nuke which deals n% of your current gold as damage (or stuns for n% sec of your gold, or... well, whatever). This will also make you face a decision - either you continue farming with your HoM, or you go and whack some arse.

3) Damage type?

4) That's a double ultimate per one passive (BH and Traxex's old one). Dunno how good this is, but it definitely needs some tweaking. One thing is sure though - that's not quite innovative.

[Axidos]

I agree with iKrivetko, the number of bonuses on this thing is crazy. The 3% bonus in damage is interesting.

2 different gold-gain bonuses? Definitely remove Transmute because you don't really need it with Covetous Lust there. If anything it just means you can give Covetous Lust a little bit of a boost on creeps.

[xy4kuz4x]

Just remove "bonus dmg from gold number" and it should be fine.

[dominator02]

remove "bonus damage from your gold" so that it is now balance well and fine.

[Dejaime]

3% of the gold?
Blades of Attack cost 500 for 9 damage, but 3% of 500 is 15...
Broadsword cost 1200 for 18 damage, but 3% of 1200 is 36...
Claymore cost 1400 for 21 damage, but 3% of 1400 is 42...
Demon Edge cost 2400 for 36 damage, but 3% of 2400 is 72...
Sacred Relic cost 3800 for 60 damage, but 3% of 3800 is 114...

You got what I mean? It nearly doubles the damage output of basic items without the need of them occupying your inventory!!

Why buying this + mkb if the 5400 gold yould be better (162 dmg) than the mkb itself? The same with radiance, buriza...

The only one worthy of getting would be Divine Rapier, the gold would give 64 damage less than the item itself), but it would be safer choosing not to buy DR.


I mean, this would make having gold better than having items... really, remove this gold based bonus or nerf it to 1%, give it a cap or something... The gold based damage plus an Hyperstone+Gloves of Haste in IAS, an "aghanim's" transmute and a gold source passive... for 5200.

I think this item was thought as a farming hand, but this way it is more like an attack booster with some secondary very-easy-gold effects.

[Elle']

Is the Additional damage magical or physical?

[-Yuuh™]

Auhauhauhauahauahau!

This guy comes with these ideas for new recipe of eaglehorn, but the majority is unbalanced and very overpowered, if you want to implement one of these IMBABOWS (O.o) make them cleary and balanced to dota. Everytime I saw a new bow comming from you I already know what's come next.. frankly dude. Sorry but this gold damage? It's no sense.

BIG T-DOWN

Congratulations! You've made your own Dota Shop

The Archery Shop..

[Axidos]

Originally Posted by xy4kuz4x

Just remove "bonus dmg from gold number" and it should be fine.

Originally Posted by dominator02

remove "bonus damage from your gold" so that it is now balance well and fine.

What's the problem with it? IMO it's probably the most interesting thing about. Of course damage gets ridiculous the more gold you have. Solution: Diminishing bonus. Just like how the more Armour you have, the less Damage Reduction each point will give you.
This item could do the same thing. For example: 1,000 gold could give you +30 damage. Once you reach 2,000, it would be +45. Once you reach 3,000, +50. Those numbers are just examples though.

We can easily pick, with the right equation:
a. the amount of damage it would be virtually impossible to go over.
b. the amount of gold you have to have to reach that point.

[Repeats]

Out of all the bows, this one makes the most sense and at least is original for once..

The extra damage based on gold is fine. It balances because eventually you will buy something and dying loses gold. However a max cap may be in order (like 100 damage ~ 3300 gold).

The extra ability is way over the top though. The extra damage based on current gold is more then powerful enough for this item imo. Because every 100 gold gives 3 bonus damage which is a decent and i might actually want to buy Midas for this upgrade more.

I can't quite support it yet, but its not bad to say the least.

[FlamingFist]

t-up for the concept

but maybe an luxury and not very useful but of the midas

[seikishi]

Thanks guys for all the input, I respect all what you have said, and indeed, this was certainly an introductory suggestion that certainly needed tweaking.

I will make the following changes and see how it turns out.
- reduce % of gold as damage to 2%, as I have not found a reasonable formula how to do this
- although Covetous Lust is a bit marginally different from Track. it is like old Marksmanship so its quite indeed bothering, but nonetheless, old Marksmanship is not currently used now in DotA
- i will retain Transmute as of the moment
- i do not know how properly adjust Covetous Lust yet

[seikishi]

Originally Posted by -Yuuh™

Auhauhauhauahauahau!

This guy comes with these ideas for new recipe of eaglehorn, but the majority is unbalanced and very overpowered, if you want to implement one of these IMBABOWS (O.o) make them cleary and balanced to dota. Everytime I saw a new bow comming from you I already know what's come next.. frankly dude. Sorry but this gold damage? It's no sense.

BIG T-DOWN

Congratulations! You've made your own Dota Shop

The Archery Shop..

Well yeah, sure, but I do not see you commenting or at at least trying to share input how it is "overpowered and imbalanced." Frankly dude, I find it weird that this be the case, as many have not reacted in your manner, and after a few adjustments, it was all just close to the original suggestion.

I find it quite ironic how you find gold damage as no sense when in fact you were the one stressing to make resulting item features deviate from its original components -- much the contrary of your very own suggestion Basilius Boots. You told me that with my other bows before I was very unoriginal, well in fact, I think am -- because I stayed true to the components at least and added effects quite novel for DotA.

I find it ironic that your comments for this suggestion are more suited for your own. At least I tried to state initially why Basilius boots was imbalanced and didn't seem to be right -- in a detailed manner in fact. DId you do the same?

Frankly dude, no.

In the future I also suggest that you adopt a better demeanor when conversing with other members of this forum. Do not force people with opinions without at least proper stating their bases.

[seikishi]

Originally Posted by Repeats

Out of all the bows, this one makes the most sense and at least is original for once..

The extra damage based on gold is fine. It balances because eventually you will buy something and dying loses gold. However a max cap may be in order (like 100 damage ~ 3300 gold).

The extra ability is way over the top though. The extra damage based on current gold is more then powerful enough for this item imo. Because every 100 gold gives 3 bonus damage which is a decent and i might actually want to buy Midas for this upgrade more.

I can't quite support it yet, but its not bad to say the least.

Thank you, at least finally I made one to your liking. Rest assured I will refine it to your and this forum's utmost liking.

Thank you for your comments, honestly, I am thinking about what to remove. Its either Transmute or Covetous Lust, I can weaken them both nonetheless.

[The-Beholder]

I like it, and I like the concept of the "increased damage via current gold" but I, as in all your bow related posts that I've been to, have to say something sorta contrary.

The additional damage is low at best, negligible at worst in some cases, and amazing in others.

Lets take 2% of average. 1000g or less. +20 or less, which is dealt as magic damage, takes a large penalty from hero armor (25%). So now it's 15 damage. Factor in any of the 900 other dmg reduction effects that are always there, and in any situation without a massive gold pile to back it, you're adding 5-10, maybe.

On the other side, let's say you're saving up say... a relic.

You have 3800g. That's 76 damage. You'd almost be better off... hell, you WOULD be better off just not getting the relic and saving up for the recipe/relic at once, or even just getting this and some small tanking items/AS items and just sit on your gold.

If my maths off, that's fine, because it's... some time and I think I'm tired.

Still though, I love the concept and if you could find a way to make the +damage via gold not god awful at some points and stupid rigged at others, it has some real potential.




I think like The Crippler and Stygian Annihilator more though =)

[seikishi]

Originally Posted by The-Beholder

I like it, and I like the concept of the "increased damage via current gold" but I, as in all your bow related posts that I've been to, have to say something sorta contrary.

The additional damage is low at best, negligible at worst in some cases, and amazing in others.

Lets take 2% of average. 1000g or less. +20 or less, which is dealt as magic damage, takes a large penalty from hero armor (25%). So now it's 15 damage. Factor in any of the 900 other dmg reduction effects that are always there, and in any situation without a massive gold pile to back it, you're adding 5-10, maybe.

On the other side, let's say you're saving up say... a relic.

You have 3800g. That's 76 damage. You'd almost be better off... hell, you WOULD be better off just not getting the relic and saving up for the recipe/relic at once, or even just getting this and some small tanking items/AS items and just sit on your gold.

If my maths off, that's fine, because it's... some time and I think I'm tired.

Still though, I love the concept and if you could find a way to make the +damage via gold not god awful at some points and stupid rigged at others, it has some real potential.




I think like The Crippler and Stygian Annihilator more though =)

Thanks.

You are right, at low gold levels damage is negligible and at high gold levels damage can get pretty awesome. I am still wracking my brain as to how to reconcile this and decide if magica damage is the way to go.

I will update this as soon as I find the correct formula.